r/BeAmazed • u/medievalpeasant_ • Aug 09 '26
History The Tuareg people (despite being predominantly Muslims) have a culture where men veil their faces, while women do not
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u/Froggn_Bullfish Aug 09 '26
They look like they’re about to drop the next hit French EDM record
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Aug 09 '26
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u/Froggn_Bullfish Aug 09 '26
I think you’re just recollecting their cameo in Villeneuve’s Dune films, they were in that too
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u/Phriendly_Phisherman Aug 09 '26
Not EDM, but there is a Tuareg band named Tinariwen that is like a blend of middle eastern music and Led Zeppelin and it is sick.
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u/pmsnow Aug 09 '26
Tinariwen is fantastic. Some of them formed another group called Terakaft. Also worth a listen.
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u/Icy_Negotiation_5929 Aug 09 '26
Also check out Mdou Moctar. Fantastic Taureg music for fans of the electric guitar! Thank you for the recommendation.
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u/BassbassbassTheAce Aug 09 '26
So now I got to check out Tinariwen, Terakraft and Mdou Moctar. Thanks for the recommendation.
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u/Wise-Living-850 Aug 09 '26
Add Ali Farka Touré to the list. He's the OG of Saharan rock.
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u/BassbassbassTheAce Aug 09 '26
Thanks, I'll check them out as well.
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u/isses_halt_scheisse Aug 09 '26
Shout out to Etran Finatawa, a band formed from different ethnicities in Niger. They got some rhythm
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u/Chemical_Chicken01 Aug 09 '26
Also check out Etran De L’Air.
I saw them live and they go off.
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u/PhantomOfTheNopera Aug 09 '26
I saw them live and it was one of the most incredible musical experiences ever. Their energy is incredible. Such a vibe.
Sastanàqqàm (I Question You) is a banger.
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u/Saharan-Gladiator Aug 09 '26
Did you just describe Sahelian music as Middle Eastern? 😭😭
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u/Phriendly_Phisherman Aug 09 '26
Thats a fair point since we are talking about Africa. But from an American perspective, Arabic music and Led Zep are the two closest reference points I have for describing it to another westerner who hasnt heard it. But again, you certainly have a point.
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u/twinkytatoos Aug 09 '26
I got to see them play in Morocco at a little music fest with a bunch of North African people. Amazing live. Like absolutely majestic experience they stayed through 2-3 days of sandstorm to play for everyone. So cool.
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u/CutSea5865 Aug 09 '26
Going to listen now!
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u/humam1953 Aug 09 '26
Same here, just checked both out: great stuff (sorry my lingo is not uptodate, 73 year old male)
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u/x_Scuba-Steve_x Aug 09 '26
Sounds legit! Kashmir with the egyptian orchestra is amazing so I bet this would be good
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u/Open_Conversation77 Aug 09 '26
I think, this is pragmatism: travelling in the desert with all its sand, winds and storms will require face coverings.
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u/maduude Aug 09 '26
And the women are forbidden from leaving the house hence they don't need any face protection?
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u/Nadamir Aug 09 '26
Not forbidden, but yeah traditionally they weren’t herding camel and other animals in the open desert, they had important duties at home where they held the power and control. The Tagelmust or litham, the face veil worn by the men and often strikingly blue (which leeches into their skin, hence the “Blue Men of the Desert”), is believed to have originated in the belief that veiling the face wards off evil spirits. But it’s also damn practical in the desert
Per wiki: “ The tagelmust is worn only by adult males and taken off only in the presence of close family. Tuareg men often find shame in showing their mouth or nose to strangers or people of a higher standing than themselves and have been known to hide their features using their hands if a tagelmust is unavailable.”
Traditionally, the tent belonged to the women, but with the shift away from nomadism, sedentary homes belong to the man, in a form of creepy patriarchy.
The Tuaregs don’t have quite as many of the women-subordinate tendencies as other Muslim groups. Even other traditionally nomadic Muslim groups like the Bedouins. Religion and culture interact with each other but are not complete overlaps.
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u/throwaway1233456799 Aug 09 '26
is believed to have originated in the belief that veiling the face wards off evil spirits. But it’s also damn practical in the desert
Everyday my theory that most of these "to ward of evil" justifications is just a parent telling their stupid kids to do the practical thing/not be so stupid get stronger. Don't go near the lake. Why? Well because there are ghoul there obviously... And at some point some idiotic adult grow up without the info that "obviously I wasn't telling the truth."
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u/AdCrafty5841 Aug 09 '26
Because to say "obviously I wasnt telling the truth" would put your entire family or possibly more in danger by it not getting properly passed down to not go to a certain place or do a certain thing. And for most of history we really didn't know why we really shouldn't be doing things, something bad happens and people say whatever their minds can comprehend at the time to tell others to not do that thing.
Its a lot easier to instill into an uneducated population that you shouldnt do something because of some superstition then it is trying to explain to them exactly why you shouldn't do it.
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u/throwaway1233456799 Aug 09 '26
I can see that but also, I think the knowledge that it is not actually true is equally important. If you really need to do X it's great to know that you are only going to suffer Y consequence (example: potential death) than to add to it the fear of having a ghoul attacking you.
That being say I think that you are right. Especially considering the amount of culture where that was not used, the smart ass parents that want their kids to knows the truth to own it so R or H person (like we can see with parents telling their kids about Santa to annoy the other parent)/patent who slipped up/...Must not have made that tactic very profitable
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u/BoopleBun Aug 09 '26
Honestly, even some religious stuff too. “Don’t eat pork, it’s forbidden”. Sure, but also pork tapeworm absolutely fucks you up if you’re living in a society that doesn’t have the tools to combat it.
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u/throwaway1233456799 Aug 09 '26
Same with the Christian "you shouldn't wear different frabric" iirc it's basically a "the product used on those will deteriorated them both, don't be stupid"
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u/Cute_Revolution_1233 Aug 09 '26
Have they made it illegal to give a culture a quick google before asking a question assuming the worst about it?
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u/Forward-Trade3449 Aug 09 '26
not yet. redditors love to hate religion so much, you would think they were personally witch hunter for it
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u/ZZ_Belle420 Aug 11 '26
They are not straight up "forbidden" from leaving the house. 🙄🤦♀️ How about ya actually know what you're spouting about before claiming false information as fact.
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u/SaltyDog772 Aug 09 '26
As an offensively ugly man, I love this idea
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u/clitmasher69 Aug 09 '26
Sometimes i catch my reflection and have to do a double take with a quiet "damn..."
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u/AllyBeetle Aug 09 '26
In my teens, I got into a fight with the ugly stick and lost.
Is your experience similar?
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u/_Goose_ Aug 09 '26
They also make a decent crossover SUV.
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u/5ShortBlast Aug 09 '26
Won the Dakar race in it's class. I had the V8 gas, the thing absolutely ripped through the snow with confidence.. Germans and their engineering though, always at least $1K when that thing went into the shop, which was often.
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u/babynotifs Aug 09 '26
Touaregs are Muslim but their society has a matriarchal structure where lineage, property, and inheritance pass through the mother.
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u/Lukainka Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 11 '26
It's matrilinear, not matriarchal. It's a patriarchal society with matrilinear kinship.
Edit: for more depth see comment below from u/AdAlternative7148
To describe Tuareg social organization as “matriarchal” is to conflate matrilineal descent reckoning with the institutional distribution of gendered authority. A more analytically defensible formulation would characterize it as a predominantly androcentric sociopolitical regime embedded within a matrilineally articulated kinship structure, wherein descent, filiative identity, property transmission, and certain successionary prerogatives are mediated through the uterine line without thereby constituting a generalized inversion of patriarchal power relations.
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Aug 09 '26
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u/FragrantMoose4000 Aug 09 '26
The terminology sounds similar, but they describe completely different things.
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u/Veritech_ Aug 09 '26
Much like social democracy and democratic socialism
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u/RaisedByBooksNTV Aug 09 '26
I definitely don't know what either of those are and need to learn.
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u/Emm_withoutha_L-88 Aug 09 '26
Democratic socialism basically just means what it says, socialism enacted through democratic means. It's really a redundant name in theory (but not in practice), as since socialism is inherently democratic. The entire point of it is to bring democracy into the financial aspects of our life, just as democracy in our legal/governmental aspects of life has made things better compared to kings. That's why you see so many people say the Soviet's and other similar systems weren't actually socialist-much less communist, they weren't democratic in choosing the government.
Social Democracy essentially just means a type of system similar to parts of northern or western Europe. A typical capitalist system but with heavy social safety nets and strong regulations over companies to ensure they operate on the public's interests. Also a name that shouldn't need to exist but does, the original idea of a capitalist democracy is that corporations absolutely need strong regulations to ensure they do not cause more problems than they solve. But over time that has been whittled away until there's barely any regulations in list capitalist countries. Social Democracy is usually just a code word for systems like Norway or Sweden. High standard of living, healthcare and child care paid for by taxes, along with a high enough tax rate to pay for all of those positive things. But it's still a capitalist system at the end of the day, not much different from America as it was before Reagan/Nixon.
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u/Unusual-Locksmith832 Aug 09 '26
Yes but I think it's on purpose. If more people knew you can actually have democratic socialism/communism, they might be more open to the idea instead of thinking it always has to be a Soviet style dictatorship.
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u/AdAlternative7148 Aug 09 '26
To describe Tuareg social organization as “matriarchal” is to conflate matrilineal descent reckoning with the institutional distribution of gendered authority. A more analytically defensible formulation would characterize it as a predominantly androcentric sociopolitical regime embedded within a matrilineally articulated kinship structure, wherein descent, filiative identity, property transmission, and certain successionary prerogatives are mediated through the uterine line without thereby constituting a generalized inversion of patriarchal power relations.
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u/Datpanda1999 Aug 09 '26
So in other words…it’s a patriarchal society with matrilinear kinship.
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u/notsocoolnow Aug 09 '26
Not precisely. The inheritance is bifurcated, so his comment is accurate.
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u/Datpanda1999 Aug 09 '26
Even if that’s the case (and I’ll assume it is as I’m not familiar with the specifics of their culture), from my understanding it’s not uncommon for a matrilineal society to have some form of matrilineal inheritance even if the society is overall patriarchal
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u/Sans-valeur Aug 09 '26
Wow what the hell this is exactly what I was gonna write! Everytime on Reddit man. Gotta be quick!
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u/AsidK Aug 09 '26
When you’re in a competition for hardest to understand comment
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u/The_Wadle Aug 09 '26
https://youtu.be/RXJKdh1KZ0w?is=heEw9lcqJwSECk4E
This is all I could think about reading this
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u/Helemaalklaarmee Aug 09 '26
So I wasted y'alls drinking water some more by asking chatgpt to simplify this comment.
I had to ask thrice, but here we go;
The Tuareg follow the mother’s family. But men are still often in charge.
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u/Rynneer Aug 09 '26
Same as Judaism, no?
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u/AlliterationAlly Aug 09 '26
I don't think inheritance works through the mother in Judaism, only the religion is passed down from the mother
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Aug 09 '26
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u/IknowlessthanIthink Aug 09 '26
In Spanish we have a saying: child of my daughter my grandchild will be, child of my son, who knows?
Hijo de mi hija, mi nieto sera;
hijo de mi hijo, quien lo sabra?
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u/Sokinalia Aug 09 '26
What's described here is matrilineal and matrilocal, not strictly matriarchal. Descent, clan identity, and often property/inheritance do pass through the mother's line, and women hold real social and economic autonomy "Matriarchal" implies women hold formal political power, which isn't quite accurate even though the informal status and independence of women is genuinely high compared to most other Muslim societies.
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u/AdministrativePool93 Aug 09 '26
I think it's called matrilineal. Same here in Indonesia, the Minang ethnic group is the largest matrilineal society on earth, who happens to be Muslim as well
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u/Fluffcake Aug 09 '26
It is actually kind of strange that not all societies work like that. Proving maternity is a lot easier than proving paternity in the good old days...
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u/reddituser4759 Aug 09 '26
Jews have to have a jewish mother to be considered jewish, for that reason I think
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u/wereinbearcountry Aug 09 '26
People knew it was better to trace lineage through the woman, but they just didn’t care. I hate to say it but men generally do not react well when they have to play second fiddle. Most religions and societies are literally structured to not hurt male feelings (the child is through his line, even though there is only solid proof it came from the mother. He gets a bride even though he did nothing to win her over, he just got her handed to him by his/her family), even when it would have been more natural to just follow the most logical path.
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u/Wolverine-75009 Aug 09 '26
Amazigh people are also traditionally a matrilineal culture.
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u/Arthurian_Guanche Aug 09 '26
Tuareg are Amazigh, they call themselves "ămajăgh" (pl. imajăghăn).
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u/raamu_thegreat Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 09 '26
People forget that culture and religion are two different things.
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u/TurbistoMasturbisto Aug 09 '26
That’s true but religion is a big part of a culture and influences it a lot.
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u/makemestand Aug 09 '26
People in Asia share same religions with other parts of the world but our cultures are totally different. In fact, cultures between countries within Asia are totally different even if people share same religion.
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u/NotTooShahby Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
Not Malaysia. It’s considered a Muslim country and my girlfriend’s family (Malaysian) ostracized her for leaving Islam, calling her a kafir. That was when I discovered how radical the country can be. I have friends who were sent to reeducation centers for considering leaving Islam. Apostasy is punishable by death (although not actually enforced it’s more a fine), Muslims women can’t marry non-Muslims (despite the alternative being okay), women aren’t allowed to be around non-Marams. A big controversy is how much Islam replaced local cultural customs.
Different religions have different effects. Buddhism seems to be able to integrate even into folk religions, Islam is at the other end of the spectrum, Christianity is close to Islam but not quite as intense when it comes to affecting cultures.
Malaysia looks like an America that let MAGA takeover. The malay population have special rights and privileges, and make up the same portion of the country as white non-hispanic people do in America. The Malay population is also 99% muslim so religion and ethnicity are intertwined.
source: Involved in South-East Asia for family and business.
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u/mt-vicory42069 Aug 09 '26
tbh to add a bit of detail. the reason why muslim women can't marry non muslims, it is about the upbringing of children. the kids grow up with the religion of the head of the house. as for muslim men they can't marry outside abrahamic religions.
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u/Kulkasbiru Aug 09 '26
Some Malaysians in internet (mostly thread and twitter) calls their neighboring country "tak bertamadun" for letting Muslim change religion freely, when we ask "are supposed to punish them?" They said we have anger issue
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u/BonJovicus Aug 09 '26
Yes, but this is a big part of the study of history, culture, and religion in Islam- separating things directly influenced by the religion and those that are not. Think about European cultures. Much of it is influenced by Christianity, but a large part of any European culture can be experienced with zero religion at all.
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u/Dazzling-Low8570 Aug 09 '26
Yep. There is no religious distinction between men and women in this matter. Both are commanded to dress "modestly." Any difference in interpretation of that commandment between men and women is cultural and local, not religious.
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Aug 09 '26
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u/Spoda_Emcalt Aug 09 '26
The rules in the Qur’An were written - at the time(!) - to protect women and people in general
Counterpoint: I'll quote a verse from the Qur'an -
'Men are in charge of women1 by [right of] what Allāh has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allāh would have them guard.2 But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance3 - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them [lightly].4 But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allāh is ever Exalted and Grand.'
Lightly wasn't in the original Arabic BTW. It was dishonestly added by translators to make the verse seem less harsh.
Nevertheless, this is the Qur'an condoning domestic violence. Hardly 'protecting' women. The Qur'an is also supposed to be a book relevant for all times..
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u/Hghwytohell Aug 09 '26
It's almost as if all religious texts were written by powerful men seeking to control women. The Qur'an is no different from the bible in this regard.
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u/Spoda_Emcalt Aug 09 '26
I don't know about all religions texts, but probably most of them yeah. Yup the Abrahamic religions aren't exactly beacons of feminism.
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u/neptuno3 Aug 09 '26
Yes Muslims can be from many different norms and cultures and live in many countries, including Western ones.
Islamists, however, employ strict religious law, do not allow minority religions, and impose a specific set of norms based on a fundamentalist interpretation of their religion and in those countries women (and children) have few to zero rights.
Hope that helps!
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u/DateofImperviousZeal Aug 09 '26
Well... one of the largest swells of refugees in recent times was specifically Syrians..
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u/Naive_Impression7302 Aug 09 '26
Lol, the bar is below the floor when you say "You have (many) Muslim countries and cultures where women are pilots, doctors and engineers. ". Sorry but I think it's telling that you're not even claiming that all muslim countries have women pilots, doctors, and engineers. After all less than 10 years ago there were muslim countries women weren't even allowed to drive.
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u/whistleridge Aug 09 '26
And Toureg men veil their faces because they were historically desert nomads and raiders who were out in the sun and dust all day. It’s workplace protective gear, not sexual modesty, and they don’t want women stealing their look.
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u/SalarySimp Aug 09 '26
look badass, remind me of that guy from the stronghold crusader game
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u/Alternative_Lime7 Aug 09 '26
They look cool as heck... Is that some kind of ceremonial dress, or are they always dripped out?
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u/jellooshot Aug 09 '26
This has nothing to do with their religion, or gender dynamics. it's simply that men go out into the desert so they have to cover their faces for protection while women mostly stay at home. a lot of nomadic people (like Arabs and amazigh, among others) also do this. This has made into their traditional clothes through time.
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u/Thulfuqar Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 09 '26
Bro we arabs ain't nomadic since decades ago
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u/zviyeri Aug 09 '26
obviously i don't know arab culture but
This has made into their traditional clothes through time.
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u/jellooshot Aug 09 '26
There are LOTS of nomadic arab tribes still. I live in Egypt and from first hand experience: Areas around Matrouh on the north cost, Sinai and even the Eastern deserts are filled with nomadic arabian tribes. Pretty sure upper Egypt has its fair share too.
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Aug 09 '26
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u/wish_to_conquer_pain Aug 09 '26
I'm fascinated by whatever culture you live in where you didn't want to be seen wearing a face mask but wearing a veil was fine.
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u/spaghettios32 Aug 09 '26
The Tuareg are a nomadic society that live in the Sahara desert, one of only a few true nomadic societies remaining today. Those veils protect their faces from the sand, wind, and sun they're exposed to while traveling through a literal barren wasteland. They also make spectacular music (see Mdou Moctar, Tinariwen, Etran de L'air and Imarhan).
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u/Poufy-Ermine Aug 09 '26
They look so cool, like if they walked through a magical portal I'd just accept this was how everyone looked. They look so otherworldly in a very mysterious and intriguing way! I hope that's not rude, I love this. I love seeing traditional things that I typically wouldn't have seen otherwise
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u/Bunnymancer Aug 09 '26
All this considered I'd rather see women's faces than men's.
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u/Illuminatum97 Aug 09 '26
I was perceived as more hot during COVID times, maybe we should adopt these guys custom.
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u/babicko90 Aug 09 '26
Modern islam is mostly a perversion of autocratic tendencies (like the middle age christianity was)
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u/Sadly_NotAPlatypus Aug 09 '26
In the US Christianity is no different. Conservatives basically believe in a Christian Sharia law here.
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u/IceFireTerry Aug 09 '26
White evangelicals are basically the Saudis of Christianity. They go to other countries spreading their radicalism
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u/RecognitionWorried93 Aug 09 '26
Redditors never beat the allegations. I which Muslims in my country behaved like U.S Christians, we wouldn't have so much religious based violence
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u/Oossped Aug 09 '26
I wish hindus in india behaved like hindus in america as well. There would be a lot less government corruption and religion based violence.
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u/IceFireTerry Aug 09 '26
Funny thing is the Muslims in the United States on average are more tolerant toward gay people than white evangelicals. It's extremely funny compared to Europe
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u/wnted_dread_or_alive Aug 09 '26
Oh yeah? What the punishment for saying you dont believe in god? Nothing
Whats the punishment in actual sharia law places for apostate? You dont know what you say except for “west bad”
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u/Sadly_NotAPlatypus Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 09 '26
Look, clearly there are plenty of differences. But one cannot deny that modern American conservatism has become an authoritarian theocratic movement. They're trying to subject us all to their Christian authoritarianism and are trying to restrict liberty and force everyone to live like them. They're also becoming increasingly radicalized and violent. I had multiple conservatives threaten my life in a local politics FB group debating trans issues just yesterday. When Trump took office again I was receiving so many death threats from conservatives on Facebook that I deleted a lot of my social media accounts and deleted my ten year old reddit account that used my real name.
My point isn't that they're exactly the same but rather that they have a lot of parallels.
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u/HeWhoDidIt Aug 09 '26
Muslim women aren't required by faith to cover the whole face either, that part is cultural. The requirement is Khimar, a cloth that covers the head, neck, and chest. Clothes that aren't snug against the body (goes for both men and women), or are in any way see-through.
Men do have some restrictions as well, the bare minimum is being covered from above the belly button to just above the ankles.
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u/Head-Bandicoot-4341 Aug 10 '26
its not even cultural its just extremist brainwashing women
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u/Nice_Muffin8689 Aug 09 '26
Aren’t they terrorizing Mali?
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u/mely_luv Aug 09 '26
Touareg are not just in mali , you can find them in Niger, Mali, Algeria, Libya, and Burkina Faso
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u/Ultrafalconxv7 Aug 09 '26
I forgot the term, but former pagan groups usually keep older religious practices even after converting if they can. That's why Christmas exists.
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u/Marcon-477 Aug 09 '26
Not gonna lie, the veil is fire. They look like Veiled warriors. Makes them look masculine and intimidating. IDK.
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u/PolishWonder79 Aug 09 '26
The Tuareg are a predominantly Muslim Amazigh (Berber) people of the Sahara and Sahel. Traditionally, adult men wear a face-covering veil called a tagelmust, while women generally do not cover their faces. The practice predates or developed largely independently of Islamic modesty customs and serves as protection from the desert as well as a symbol of adulthood, dignity, and social etiquette. Tuareg society also has strong matrilineal traditions: descent and status often pass through the mother’s line, women traditionally own important household property, and they historically have had considerable independence in marriage and divorce.
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u/setiix Aug 09 '26
Yeah, that is because they live in a place where wind can cut your skin because of sand.
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u/KainLust Aug 09 '26
Why the woman doesn't cover it then?
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u/StoerEnStoutmoedig Aug 09 '26
Probably because stuff like this is never as feminist as people want you to think and women are expected to stay in the home
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u/23-1-20-3-8-5-18 Aug 09 '26
Makes sense. Women have beautiful faces and men......
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u/meriboo Aug 09 '26
Well... It's almost as if Islam spans so many distinct cultures and each with its own local traditions... Idk why people think Muslim identity is a monolith...
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u/belaruseyes Aug 09 '26
Why man veil their face?
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u/medievalpeasant_ Aug 09 '26
Originally it was for protection from the desert sun and sand, culturally speaking it also implies things like entering adulthood and social status
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u/Auctorxtas Aug 09 '26
Seems to be the same logic behind why one would assume a man in uniform to be more senior, I assume?
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u/Porkkanaparta Aug 09 '26
I believe that men hide faces If there is elder males / highly respected inviduals around. If they show you full face, you are not respected.
Also, desert.
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u/wikidemic Aug 09 '26
In our culture, we cover our crotches so as not to excite the opposite (and same) sex?!?
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u/nasandre Aug 09 '26
"The Aiel can be friendly to those they deem non-threatening, but when their veils come out, death is never far away."
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u/spunkmastersean1993 Aug 09 '26
It’s cool but I’m not sure why people are shocked when Muslim men have to cover up and be modest
Like up awrah for men
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u/Frosty_Lettuce_3525 Aug 09 '26
I for one, have often thought about hiding my hamdsomeness so that women don’t succumb to the temptations of their lewd thoughts.
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u/Herabird Aug 09 '26
As a reader I am curious as to where these people live. Just a suggestion since reddit has a world-wide audience that perhaps this could have been added to the original post. Inquiring minds, you know... :)
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u/Better_Tailor_7324 Aug 09 '26
Some of the best people and humans in general to spend time with in algeria.
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u/Independent-Story883 Aug 09 '26
Beautiful people.
They make beautiful jewelry as well
Muslims are not monolithic
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u/meldiane81 Aug 09 '26
I literally just said I love that for them. Nice change. Although all religion is a cult and they should probably escape lol
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