Let's talk about Harry Potter

[u/AMVilla86]

… and other problematic IP

Hi folks,

We need your input. The mods have been discussing for a bit now about crafts with complicated Intellectual Property creators. Occasionally a craft will receive reports due to the theme of the craft and not about crafting itself. While we try to be as open-minded as possible, and we follow sitewide rules (such as no hate speech targeting identity or vulnerability, etc), there is still some nuance with moderating these types of posts. These posts have raised many questions, but we realized we needed to ask the community what they thought. If the community is uncomfortable with something, we want to know and be sure to moderate appropriately.

Some of the ideas we had so far, and why they would be tough to implement:

- Ban specific IP→ Where do we draw the line of what is and isn’t allowed?

- Create specific flair for ‘problematic’ → again, where is the line drawn?

- When a post receives enough reports about the theme and not the craft, leave a high-level moderator comment explaining how to block a user and/or hide a post → might be ignoring a problem rather than solving the issue for the sub.

With that being said, there’s only so much we can police. We want crafters to feel welcome, but with all the moderating we do, it would be hard to add on a layer of “educate a crafter on why the creator of this IP is bad” on top of our normal roles. We also don’t want our subreddit to become a lightning rod for debate. Ultimately, we are a crafts subreddit. While a few comments about inspiration of a craft is allowed, and questioning of said inspiration is also welcome, once we're many comments deep in multiple comment threads with no mention of crafting, it is no longer an appropriate conversation for r/crafts. There are many other subreddits for discussion and debate where you can converse.

So, what do you all think we should do with these types of posts? If we receive a large variety of ideas, we'll put it together in a survey or poll to further gauge how the subreddit feels. Also, feel free to message the mods if you're uncomfortable commenting on the post.

[u/redoingredditagain]

I ethically hate Harry Potter but I also hate censorship. I worry about it devolving into banning Steven King IP for child abuse or animal abuse, or so-and-so for supporting a war, or such-and-such creator who tweeted something in poor taste.

I really don’t see a problematic tag doing too much for the community, and I think it would upset some people for their posts to be labeled problematic when they clearly don’t think it is. Someone’s love of a children’s series isn’t always rooted in bigotry, even if they are perpetuating it by keeping her and her views relevant and lining her pockets with more money to do bigoted politics.

I believe censorship is worse in this instance, but transphobic comments (and anti-semitism, racism, and all the things that come with JKR and her work) can be banned. I am a trans person of color, and while I wish her IP would get lost, I fear the future of other bans, as stated before.

I am a firm believer in keeping her work from public relevance (because even “she didn’t profit from my crafts/fic/art!” keeps her and her IP relevant and popular), but I don’t think here is the place to have that battle.

[u/RatherBeAtDisney → u/redoingredditagain]

I think “problematic” is maybe the wrong word for a tag if we go that route. Maybe “complicated IP”

Edit: thinking more, I think the tag could just be “Contains IP” and then everything gets the auto mod comment regardless even if it’s about Mr Rogers.

[u/kyothinks → u/RatherBeAtDisney]

I feel like "contains IP" is plenty neutral and can cover a wide variety of stuff--HP, but also Barbie, Stranger Things, Disney, Star Trek, Doctor Who, whatever. The high-level moderator comment can say something like "discussions of the IP that are not explicitly about the craft itself can be had here 👇" or something. Then people who feel compelled to educate have a space to do that, and others don't have to engage if they don't want to, and OP isn't getting dogpiled by notifications.

[u/Adreeisadyno → u/RatherBeAtDisney]

Maybe mom something like “ CONTAINS IP [HARRY POTTER]” And a spoiler tag/NSFW tag, so if someone doesn’t want to see the IP they do not have to, whether it’s Barbie or Disney or Friends

[u/mensfrightsactivists → u/Adreeisadyno]

logistically, as a mod (not here), i shudder to think how difficult it would be to come up with and maintain an exhaustive flair list for every possibly problematic ip. i like where this idea is going but dont think its possible to call out all the specific ips that could have issues, especially when you consider it on a global scale. does r crafts have mods who know enough about and can maintain a list of problematic bollywood ips? a mod who knows about what k dramas to avoid? (not that i know any of any off the top of my head, just examples)

i think something like.. “controversial IP” or another type of blanket flair could work, maybe with a few specific ones for the hot button franchises (such as hairy potman etc)?

just spitballin here

[u/Adreeisadyno → u/mensfrightsactivists]

Not a flair, but in the title of the post, for all possible IPs, so example would be “I made this for my niece! CONTAINS IP [My Little Pony]”

[u/mensfrightsactivists → u/Adreeisadyno]

oh okay gotchu. so that would be a whole different level of moderation wrt enforcement though. i can see it working but since that would need to be a formatting rule, and titles can’t be edited, i would see implementing that would involve a lot of post removals. not to mention time investment, since reports are user input and not a great thing to rely on usually. maybe an automod guidance like r/crossstitch has? but they require bracketed tags like that on every post, so implementing an automod rule for something that isn’t applicable to every post would be challenging too

i like the idea just trying to see the holes because i understand the mods’ need to get ahead of stuff like this instead of batting away constant reports on a touchy ip

[u/Tractor_Goth → u/redoingredditagain]

Also trans and this sums up my feelings as well. I think a sticky of some sort that can be referred to instead of unproductive dogpiling could be useful both to people who don’t understand what the problem is and people who want to communicate that without things devolving into a shouting match.

[u/just_flying_bi → u/redoingredditagain]

This is such an intelligent, mature, and thoughtful take. Thank you!

[u/sillygoofygooose → u/redoingredditagain]

Out of curiosity - where is the right place for that battle? Because pushing against populist bigotry is going to be unpopular by definition. I struggle to think of an impactful place to discuss this where it won’t frustrate some

[u/redoingredditagain → u/sillygoofygooose]

People post crafts here out of love & passion. There is no perfect place to have such a discussion, but on someone’s hard work steeped in such passion, it will only ever be seen as a personal attack. I think more general spaces is where education might happen best (social media, the news, articles, in person friend groups and circles), but even then, people who have a deep nostalgia for their childhoods might not ever change despite the real, active, and tangible harm JKR has done to the world.

I’m not saying that that there are places that the discussion can’t happen, but I just think in a sub where people post passion crafts is going to be one of the least effective places possible. A lot of people double down when they feel they are being attacked.

[u/sillygoofygooose → u/redoingredditagain]

You may be right, but it is interesting that this argument matches exactly the one most often levelled against political protests in general. Sadly disturbing the status quo - even one that is vile like transphobia - is always going to make a lot of people uncomfortable

[u/redoingredditagain → u/sillygoofygooose]

I believe we have to fight transphobia and other bigotry in every space, but I guess what I’m trying to say is that the people making and posting Harry Potter crafts are not really the people who are going to suddenly go “oh no, I’ve been perpetuating bigoted content! I have seen the errors of my ways and will stop immediately.”

It’s me being more realistic than anything else. And I’m against a total ban due to censorship anyway.

[u/sillygoofygooose → u/redoingredditagain]

I mean yeah, people don’t tend to change their beliefs right away. That’s why climate change also isn’t solved, and you’d better believe ‘this is stupid because it inconveniences me a lot/makes me feel bad’ is the most common response to attempts to change people’s minds on that.

[u/Capital-Exercise-364 → u/redoingredditagain]

if you hate censorship then you should be fine with hectoring HP adults the same way the people funded by JKR hector trans people

[u/StarFlareDragon → u/redoingredditagain]

I completely agree. I dislike her and hate everything she stands for. But censorship is not the answer. Or we become them.

[u/Apollohue → u/redoingredditagain]

Everything you said really sums up my feelings on this topic, too. I am extremely against censorship, but I also believe in mitigating harm. Supporting HP today, financially or not, is lending support to a vocal and influential transphobe. Even keeping the IP relevant and in the public eye means that the author can leverage that relevance for profit, like with the new series. I can sympathize with people who love or use to love the series, but as a trans person myself, I can't look past the harm that rowling has caused enough to want to engage with the material. Actually, seeing things related to it makes me feel very upset and angry. I would never use that upset as an excuse to harass anyone, but if I feel it, I'm sure many others who are affected by her bigotry do too.

On the other hand, I fear banning topics simply because they have the potential to make people upset. If that were implemented, as the mods and this comment mentioned, it would be hard to draw a firm line. Selfishly, I would love to live in a world where I never had to see anything related to that series ever again. But realistically, that's not possible. I guess the best compromise would be a moderator comment about the harm done by the author of this IP, though honestly that feels like more of a concession on the part of people who are harmed by it than it does an equally beneficial solution.

I do appreciate the mods for bringing this up for discussion and taking the harm done into consideration. I think taking some kind of action, even if it needs to be tested and reworked later, is better than doing nothing.

[u/wheresmahgoat → u/redoingredditagain]

I feel like people can also just express their disapproval of a post simply by downvoting it

[u/bubblesaurus → u/redoingredditagain]

that’s gonna be hard especially with the new series about to air next year.

And so far it’s looking like it might be pretty good.