r/Judaism • u/justjust000 • Jan 20 '26

We're what's left šŸ˜„

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Link to original Instagram post: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQJ3AkViofr

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141

u/Remarkable-Pea4889 Jan 20 '26

I wouldn't wear a shirt like this, but it's actually somewhat true. Research has shown that to survive the Holocaust people needed to be selfish rather than selfless.

87

u/njtalp46 Jan 20 '26

I know hard data is the best proof, but this rings true on an intuitive level.Ā 

One anecdote: my grandfather survived because he was rebellious and hated shtetl life. I heard the story of him eating ham and getting punched in the face by his father. But that spirit also made him willing to hang out with Russian soldiers when they moved into town. The same Russian soldiers who liked him and offered him a lift (alone, no family) when they pulled out ahead of the German invasion. 8 immediate family died, he lived.Ā 

I'd say that was pretty selfish of him.Ā 

35

u/akivayis95 Jan 20 '26

Based on everything I've ever been told, he likely didn't think family members were about to die, right? Many thought discrimination and persecution from the Germans would come, which, yes, that is selfish to leave family behind like that now that I think of it.

25

u/ZalmoxisChrist Jan 20 '26

This was my exact thought process when I watched "Come And See" (1985). The protagonist is Belarusian, not Jewish, but the antagonists are the same damn Nazis. It's weird to call a selfish, naĆÆve character who gets most things wrong a protagonist, but when the Nazis are involved you always know who the antagonist is.

13

u/njtalp46 Jan 20 '26

I enjoyed reading your inner monologue play out. You raise a good point though

16

u/Klexington47 Reconstructionist Jan 21 '26

My Saba survived selling soap from the Germans to the Russians because he was mischievous, bold, and a rebellious trouble maker. Never made the correlation until now.

3

u/njtalp46 Jan 21 '26

That's incredible. Also now paranoid my grandfather had a secret second family lol

7

u/TheGiantFell Jan 21 '26

And then thereā€™s the anecdote of the freezing cattle car where the only ones who survived were those who huddled together for warmth. If youā€™re suggesting that selfishness is a necessity of survival, you are mistaken.

6

u/RedStripe77 Jan 22 '26

Good story. I would not call it selfish but self-preserving and resourceful. What smarts your grandfather had, making friends with people outside his community, who were stronger and better equipped, and willing to help him. Jews had almost no allies anywhere! How exceptional that he won those soldiers over! It was his ticket out of certain death. Was he wrong to seek escape? Would his family begrudge him? Objectively, he was the one who adapted to the desperate, inescapable situation that was coming, and thus survive. Who are we to judge whether he was good or bad or right or wrong? There was no elegant, perfect solution for anyone. There was no solution, period! Except ā€œthe final solution.ā€ Good for him that he got out. Baruch ha-Shem.

1

u/justjust000 Jan 21 '26

That sounds like an interesting tale. Did he ever write down his memoir?

3

u/njtalp46 Jan 21 '26

No unfortunately, but an oral recollection was logged by a Holocaust museum

1

u/justjust000 Jan 22 '26

Nice. Do you have any links?

2

u/njtalp46 Jan 22 '26

I don't want to share since it'll doxx my account. But so many survivor stories are magnificent and worth listening to

1

u/justjust000 Jan 22 '26

Absolutely

19

u/sarcasm_itsagift Jan 21 '26

My cousin always says Jews have a propensity for anxiety because hyper vigilance has kept us alive šŸ« 

1

u/crazysometimedreamer Reform Jan 23 '26

I wonder how many of us have a go bag with readily accessible papers?

18

u/Sensitive-Inside-250 Jan 20 '26

What research?

20

u/Remarkable-Pea4889 Jan 20 '26

For example, Survivorship and Shame: Tracing the Affective Afterlife of the Holocaust.

For some, this shame stems from the unshakeable understanding that they survived when many others did not, while for others this shame is caused by the their actions during the war which they now understand as wrong or corrupt, such as carrying out acts of perpetration towards other prisoners, using sex and prostitution as a survival tool, and acting in selfish and inhumane ways.

https://journals.library.ualberta.ca/constellations/index.php/constellations/article/view/22032/16400

12

u/crazysometimedreamer Reform Jan 21 '26

Iā€™m a cancer survivor. I feel a great deal of sadness that Iā€™ve known so many people with ā€œlower stage, easier to treat, better prognosisā€ died. I even feel this way about people in their 60s and 70s and 80s, and I was in my 30s.

I can also guarantee you that nothing I did helped me get an edge to survive. I just did the treatment I was given. I did not have a positive attitude. I remember meeting people and thinking why I had to be the one to have the hard cancer. Or be so young. Iā€™d have dark thoughts in support groups when people were going on about not enjoying their retirement cause they had cancer in their 70s when theyā€™d lived 4 more decades that I was likely going to get. (And then Iā€™d feel horrible because cancer always sucks.)

I watched people with easier cancers, a personal relationship with their God, supportive family, gym memberships, vegan organic food eaters, money, and positive attitudes get struck down while I didnā€™t.

I know I did nothing special and they did nothing special, it was blind chance who lived and who died. But, I still feel guilty, like I somehow cheated.

Survivorship guilt is real.

33

u/Sensitive-Inside-250 Jan 20 '26

So normal human behavior seen in any violent or stressful situation. That link doesnā€™t back up your claim that people needed to be selfish to survive the holocaust. Survivors remorse and shame isnā€™t proof of being selfish.

Hereā€™s a study showing that friendship and community even in places like Auschwitz improved the odds of survival.

12

u/Klexington47 Reconstructionist Jan 21 '26

My safta was a survivor and she always said "if you can make just one friend anywhere you go, your time will be easier. Friends are important". Damn she was a smart woman

20

u/idkmyusernameagain Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26

Thatā€™s not the conclusion that can be drawn from what you shared.

It starts with ā€œfor someā€ letting you know this isnā€™t going to be applicable to all or even most.

Then, it classifies shame as being derived from different sources from simply surviving when others didnā€™t (doesnā€™t sound selfish to me), sex and prostitution or selfish acts.

The closest conclusion from this is ā€œsome people survived through selfish acts, others through using sex as a survival tool, means of survival for all others was not addressed by this paperā€

1

u/crazysometimedreamer Reform Jan 23 '26

Yes, they are totally missing the point of this. Itā€™s a very common phenomenon that people who survive something that kills a lot of people feel deep shame and guilt over surviving, and come to see the people who survived as more innocent and perfect than themselves. I can tell you about all the kind hearted people Iā€™ve known who died of cancer, and Iā€™d probably say theyā€™re nicer than I am. (I had cancer and didnā€™t die.) I know, objectively, they werenā€™t. They were real people with real problems and real faults, but I can tell you fantastic stories about every one of them.

But my mind has romanticized them. I know all my ugly faults, but I donā€™t know all of theirā€™s. And I guess Iā€™ve internalized the ā€œonly the good die young.ā€

Iā€™m also certain that there were selfish people and people who traded sex who didnā€™t survive the holocaust. They just didnā€™t live to tell about it.

27

u/GonzoTheGreat93 Bagel Connaisseur Jan 20 '26

Not to downplay the Holocaust, but there were roughly 10 million Jews who were not murdered by the Nazis. Including Sephardi and Mizrachi Jews who were largely untouched by the Nazis.

As for Ashkenazim, North America already had a sizeable Jewish population - including all four of my grandparents, who were born in Canada in the 1930s.

Who do I get to blame for being an asshole?

16

u/littlemachina Jan 20 '26 edited Jan 20 '26

Not to mention the many who survived merely because the war ended and they were rescued from camps before dying. They didnā€™t do anything necessarily ruthless or whatever. Iā€™ve had this debate with an antisemite who said ā€œOnly the sneaky ones livedā€ or something so itā€™s kind of disappointing to have to repeat this on this sub of all places :/Ā 

4

u/Pugasaurus_Tex Jan 21 '26

I mean, there were pogroms long before the HolocaustĀ 

Thereā€™s probably a reason your relatives came to CanadaĀ 

Thereā€™s probably someone you can blame

1

u/jacobningen Feb 05 '26

Statistically speaking cremeniuex

3

u/coneycolon Jan 22 '26

I wasn't born until decades after the Holocaust. I'm still pissed.

1

u/Fit-Temperature-5362 Feb 16 '26

Got any sources on the 10 million not killed I canā€™t find anythingĀ 

1

u/GonzoTheGreat93 Bagel Connaisseur Feb 16 '26

Literally just math. There were 16 million before, 6 million killed.Ā 

1

u/Fit-Temperature-5362 Feb 16 '26

1933 there were around 10 million total Ā in europe

1

u/GonzoTheGreat93 Bagel Connaisseur Feb 16 '26

And around 6 million in other parts of the worldā€¦Ā 

My point was that Jews existed in other places during the Holocaust.Ā 

1

u/Fit-Temperature-5362 Feb 16 '26

The comment I originally responded to made it seem like you thought the nazis spared or didnā€™t get to 10 million in Europe. Obviously 10 million survived if they were on the other side of the world.

1

u/GonzoTheGreat93 Bagel Connaisseur Feb 16 '26

My original comment explicitly mentioned Sephardim, mizrachim, and ashkenazim who lived in places outside of Europe. Like my family who lived in Canada in the 1930/.Ā 

1

u/Fit-Temperature-5362 Feb 16 '26

You said who the nazis didnā€™t kill like it was an optionĀ 

1

u/GonzoTheGreat93 Bagel Connaisseur Feb 16 '26

This is such a nitpicky, ungenerous reading of what I have explicitly said is not the case that I am forced to assume youā€™re looking for a fight.Ā 

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u/Swimming_Care7889 Jan 21 '26

From what I read, the people who survived the Holocaust weren't necessarily selfish but they were willing to take risks and defy orders from the Nazis or if they got caught and ended up in a Concentration Camp were clear eyed enough to realize this wasn't a mistake and that all they needed to do is find somebody responsible to speak to. Jews who followed orders for whatever reason tended to end up dead. I've also heard that one reason why the number of Roma victims was lower were that Roma were more likely to act up even when surrounded by Nazi soldiers and SS people while many Jews just silently resigned themselves to their fate.

-7

u/Delinquentmuskrat Jan 20 '26

You need research to confirm common sense?