r/linux • u/TurbulentTopic39 • 4d ago

Development Flathub just reversed its AI-generated content ban, but developers still need to say they used it

https://www.xda-developers.com/flathub-just-reversed-its-ai-generated-content-ban-but-developers-still-need-to-say-they-used-it/
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u/noobjaish 3d ago edited 3d ago

AnyPS5 is a few months old and is already at 80%+ (you can test quite a few games already on it).

It took Wine, Waydroid and all the amazing console emulators DECADES and an insane amount of effort to reach usable states.

Someone recreated the entire Adobe suite in a few months (and surprisingly it's very usable) meanwhile Gimp is still dogshit even after decades of work.

People have lives outside of sitting infront of their computers in their basements.

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u/AliceCode 3d ago

PS5 runs on x86_64, previous consoles did not. That's a large part of the reason it's so much easier.

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u/starm4nn 3d ago

The original Xbox was using regular 'ol x86, and it's only been in the last decade or so that emulation was in a good state.

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u/AliceCode 3d ago

And emulators for the original Xbox were made, so what's your point?

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u/starm4nn 13h ago

The emulator wasn't made during the lifespan of the console like we're seeing here.

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u/AliceCode 10h ago

That was a hardware problem.

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u/FyreWulff 2d ago

that's because 95% of the games peopled care about on it also had PC versions. It doesn't even have an exclusive Halo game, both Halo 1 and 2 had PC versions.

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u/noobjaish 3d ago

Not really.

PlayStation's recent "you don't own games" BS and removal of disks is a major reason

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u/lemontoga 3d ago

That has nothing to do with any of this

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u/MorallyDeplorable 3d ago

CPU emulator cores exist for any non-x86 CPU they would have possibly used for the PS5 and would have provided basically the same starting point that native x86_64 does.

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u/Lawnmover_Man 3d ago

It took Wine, Waydroid and all the amazing console emulators DECADES and an insane amount of effort to reach usable states.

..........what? Decades for usable state?

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u/Brillegeit 3d ago

I assume "running games using DirectX12" is the goalpost for "usable" here. Wine was usable in the late '90s, and Codeweavers sold licenses to it in 2002.

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u/Nalivai 3d ago

Wine is so much not the same thing as anyPS5, it's not even funny. Waydroid initial commit is 5 years old.
They are also pieces of software built at least partially to be supported in the future, and so far all the big slopped projects are the opposite of those, and you can go far and wide if you don't care about the future.

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u/noobjaish 3d ago

Wine is so much not the same thing as anyPS5, it's not even funny.

I never claimed that it was? I was listing

Waydroid initial commit is 5 years old.

It takes a lot of stuff from other projects that existed before it (Anbox, Halium etc) + AOSP is open-source while PlaystationOS isn't

They are also pieces of software built at least partially to be supported in the future, and so far all the big slopped projects are the opposite of those, and you can go far and wide if you don't care about the future.

That's just your assumption because the ability to make this stuff at scale with AI is barely a year old. These projects use spec-driven development to contain the chaos and essentially work feature by feature (that is clearly them being serious about maintaining this stuff in the future).

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u/Nalivai 3d ago edited 3d ago

I never claimed that it was? I was listing

Than why did you mentioned it. Significantly more complicated, completely different project took longer to make, what's the news? Linux took decades to build, therefore it's impossible for humans to make anything quickly, right?

It takes a lot of stuff from other projects that existed before it

I would like you to remember that you're defending an LLM. This is like it's whole thing.

hese projects use spec-driven development to contain the chaos and essentially work feature by feature

This doesn't change anything. All development is spec-driven development, the difference is scope. But if your realization of a feature is write-only, your complete product will be write-only, no matter how detailed your interface descriptions are. We just went through all that with microservice infrastructure, it didn't automagically solve all the problems. Neither did TDD. Neither will this "what if nobody knows what in this blackbox, this way nobody can tell if it's shit" approach.

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u/MorallyDeplorable 3d ago

He mentioned it because WINE and AnyPS5 are both taking the translate syscalls and run code natively approach and they're both doing it at a system-wide scope.

WINE is more complex, sure, but it's not as far off as you seem to be pretending.

He's also explaining how to use an AI effectively to you because you clearly don't know, you arguing such pointless semantics about it is just sad.

You're a fool if you think the speed that AnyPS5 was developed at would have been possible by one person before AI.

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u/Nalivai 1d ago

He mentioned it because WINE and AnyPS5 are both taking the translate syscalls and run code natively approach and they're both doing it at a system-wide scope.

I don't know what you're talking about, smartass, but anyps5 that you can see on github is a binary recompiler, so it's not doing what you think it's doing.
But that explains the rest of your comment, I assume your ai girfrlend hallucinated when she was summarising you my comment.

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u/MorallyDeplorable 1d ago

lmao, you're wrong. It's a relinker and a library to link against.

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u/Nalivai 1d ago

That's... practically the same thing in this context. I mean, technically it doesn't complies all the code, it mostly relinks system libraries, but again, those technicalities don't matter here.
It's different from Wine that works as a layer translating system calls from Windows to Linux equivalents, in realtime, without modifying the original.
Those two systems are fundamentally different, and even though they do "the same thing" from a user perspective, and have an overlap in functionality, you need to know very little about how it works to think for a moment that you can compare Wine and a freshly baked project, that, mind you, right now lists only one game on it's official compatibility list, and it's a platformer that already has Windows version.

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u/MorallyDeplorable 1d ago edited 1d ago

It's literally not at all the same thing and saying it is shows how ignorant you are on the subject.

compiler = turns code from C++ to assembly

linker = maps and links compiled code in various modules together and produces an executable.

they are not recompiling, the c++ code remains the same. They are replacing the external code it links to with pointers to their own library and outputting a new executable.

The compiled code remains the same, the only changes are in the export/import mappings.

The new lib is compiled because of course it is but it's not a recompilation, it's a new implementation.

This is functionally very similar to WINE, except WINE does it real-time with a custom binary format loader and this converts a file to the binary format the host already has a loader for.

You could make this work the same as WINE by simply having a binfmt handler that converts to a host-compatible format on first access.

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u/BoomGoomba 3d ago

You're forgetting that it is trained on this decade of code

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u/noobjaish 3d ago

And?

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u/BoomGoomba 3d ago

If I copy-paste an entire code base, are you also gonna claim I did a decade worth of work in a single day?

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u/noobjaish 3d ago

LLMs don't copy paste... If you call that copy pasting then looking for solutions on Stackoverflow and Reddit is also copy pasting and is the exact same thing that basically every dev does.

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

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u/BoomGoomba 3d ago

I did not claim LLMs copy-paste. They however have been proven to remember and restitute entire parts of their training data.

What I am claiming is that building something after it has already been built is not as huge as you want it to be. No one would claim a developer did a decade amount of work for that. Let alone a LLM that can digest and repurpose way more existing code. So it's even less of an achievement for a LLM.

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u/noobjaish 3d ago

It's a massive achievement to do that thing in a fraction of the time it'd take you to do it normally in ages.

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u/BoomGoomba 3d ago

No it's not. You don't have any argument?

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u/noobjaish 3d ago

Stay in denial

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u/BoomGoomba 3d ago

Find a better claim next time

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u/Unhappy-Sprinkles143 3d ago

The goalpost moving in /r/linux is always as beautiful, they will be the last ones to be dragged kicking and screaming

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u/Honey_Catfish950 3d ago

Why do pro-AI folks so often talk the same way crypto-bros did? You have to get in on this now or get left behind and stay/become poor!

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u/MorallyDeplorable 3d ago

Crypto was scammers trying to get buy-in, AI is people seeing the writing on the wall.

The similarity you noticed is coincidental.

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u/Honey_Catfish950 3d ago

I can kind of understand that when doing commercial work, where there's an endless pressure to deliver more, faster, and cheaper. But in the context of non-commercial open source software, what's the point? Even if you don't care about AI's effects on the environment or society, it has negative effects on the user directly (like cognitive decline from the brain becoming accustomed to offloading thinking and decision making, as demonstrated by programmers who become incapable of doing anything when they run out of Claude credits, or people asking chatgpt what to have for lunch) so why subject yourself to it if it's not necessary?

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u/MorallyDeplorable 3d ago edited 3d ago

what's the point?

Most people code to get a product at the end of it, not because they really like curly braces and semicolons

Even if you don't care about AI's effects on the environment or society,

It's not that I don't care, it's that I don't believe they're anywhere near the level people are acting like and have yet to see any not laughably wrong info proving the claims. Many of the environmental claims against AI are completely laughable and many more are people assuming designs that don't fit their climates/environments at all are for some reason going to be used there.

it has negative effects on the user directly (like cognitive decline

cognitive decline is make-believe nonsense by people who fail to realize the difference between Alzheimer's and what's cognitively important changing over time

so why subject yourself to it if it's not necessary?

uh because I have more stuff I want to make than time to make it and a finite mortal lifespan

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u/Honey_Catfish950 3d ago

Most people code to get a product at the end of it, not because they really like curly braces and semicolons
[...]
because I have more stuff I want to make than time to make it and a finite mortal lifespan

I suppose there are two kinds of people: those who value the destination and those for whom the journey is the destination, as trite as it sounds. (Not a value judgement, I'm not saying either is better or worse!)

I recently came across this lovely quote from Donald Knuth that resonates with me:

The process of preparing programs for a digital computer is especially attractive, not only because it can economically and scientifically rewarding, but also because it can be an aesthetic experience much like composing poetry or music.

Regarding the environmetal claims: Are they really that laughable? Sure, in the future we'll hopefully get more efficient hardware and more green energy, but the problem does exist today to such degree it's affecting elections! Even if we discount the water usage which could be mitigated with closed loop systems, AI data centers are incredibly power hungry compared to regular data centers and are raising electricity prices for everyone. Not to mention the ones using portable gas turbines which cause massive noise pollution and regular pollution.

cognitive decline is make-believe nonsense by people who fail to realize the difference between Alzheimer's and what's cognitively important changing over time

I don't mean something like Alzheimer's, but the (luckily reversible) skill atrophy that comes from not using your brain. Unless you're fully vibe coding, you still need those skills to evaluate what the AI produced. This can be quite deceptive, since one can forget how to write while still remembering how to read.

And, since this is a Linux subreddit, there's a political aspect to it as well. The reason I use Linux, even when using Windows or Mac would have been the path of least resistance, is because I believe in Software Freedom. It's not acceptable to me to give up now and become dependent on Microsoft or some other big corporation for the skills I've spent years practicing. I suppose many here feel the same way, which is why we have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the dystopian future where the corporations have won.

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u/MorallyDeplorable 3d ago

Are they really that laughable?

Yea, basically.

you still need those skills to evaluate what the AI produced

Not really. If you're reading actual lines of code that the AIs are producing outside of narrow and specific situations you're not doing it right. Defining a clear spec and clear testing parameters/acceptance gates is much more effective with AI than sitting there trying to babysit every block of code it spits out. You're just another example of somebody who doesn't understand AI workflows sharing their opinion on them.

And, since this is a Linux subreddit, there's a political aspect to it as well.

Linux having a political side to it does not inherently mean everyone who uses it cares or that you have to politicize non-political things and make up FUD.

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u/Honey_Catfish950 3d ago

Are they really that laughable?

Yea, basically.

Are you saying the examples are listed are not true? Or just that they don't matter?

You're just another example of somebody who doesn't understand AI workflows sharing their opinion on them.

True enough, though I think my opinions still stand even if I'm not versed in the details of how to vibecode the most effectively, just as I could criticize Bitcoin without knowing the minute details of its implementation. Perhaps we're approaching this from different value sets? For me, what videcoding provides is not worth the cost of the dependence it breeds.

Linux having a political side to it does not inherently mean everyone who uses it cares or that you have to politicize non-political things and make up FUD.

I'm not going to say everything is political, because even though it is, not everything is political to the same degree. However, AI most definitely is very political! I'd go as far as to say it ranks up amongst the most political pieces of technology humanity has created. What if AI will eventually work as well as the folks over at OpenAI claim it will? What if automation supplants all (or even just a sufficiently high fraction of) human labor? In this case, politics is the difference whether it results in Fully Automated Luxury Space Communism or a Cyberpunk Dystopia. Even if AI stagnates and merely automates away some work, it's still political like every labor saving technology in history, such as the famous cotton spinning machines.

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u/MorallyDeplorable 3d ago

Are you saying the examples are listed are not true? Or just that they don't matter?

I already addressed people looking at the stupidest examples they could and extrapolating them to all datacenters. There's nothing else left to add here.

True enough, though I think my opinions still stand even if I'm not versed in the details of how to vibecode the most effectively, just as I could criticize Bitcoin without knowing the minute details of its implementation. Perhaps we're approaching this from different value sets? For me, what videcoding provides is not worth the cost of the dependence it breeds.

You need to take your realization of "I don't know what I'm talking about" to it's logical conclusion instead of immediately dismissing it.

AI most definitely is very political!

using a clanker to write random bits of code is not inherently political, you're just projecting all the FUD you've ignorantly bought into on to it.

Pardon me for being dismissive but it's hard to care about the opinion of somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about and seems to be proud of that fact.

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u/Unhappy-Sprinkles143 3d ago

You don't have to get in on it, but when all the people who develop your precious Linux desktop use it you will have to stop the bitching.

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u/Honey_Catfish950 3d ago

No I don't! It's my sacred right as Linux user to bitch about anything and everything, even and especially the stuff I don't use!

(just kidding; don't actually be toxic to open source maintainers, their job is thankless enough as it is.)