Kihon and basic blocks

[u/oniDblue]

White belt here. I’ve just started Kyokushin Karate and have a question about the basics.

How much of what we learn early on, such as blocks, kihon (basics), basic stances, and kata, actually carries over into kumite and real combat?

Are the techniques we drill in kihon essentially the same movements used in fighting, just adapted to be more economical and fluid? Or are the formal techniques and stances mainly training tools for developing things like balance, timing, coordination, power, and body mechanics?

For example, are the formal stances actually useful in combat, or do you naturally end up using much more relaxed and compact versions of them?

And what’s the best way to practice the basics so that they eventually become useful in kumite rather than just looking good in kihon?

I’m wondering if it’s a bit like learning scales in music. You practice the movements very formally and precisely, but when you actually "play the song," they show up in a more natural and adapted form. And you can slightly alter/change them to suit new needs or even use them in different ways.

Would love to hear how Kyokushin practitioners think about this, especially how your understanding of kihon, stances, and kata changed once you started doing more kumite.

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[u/LawfulnessPossible20]

I don't do Kyokushin, my thing is shito-ryu. But if a shito ryu white belt asked me this question, by answer would be....

99% of everything in kata an kihon is usable. What "looks" good is what works. Kihon and kata exaggerate stuff, because in fighting things will mess up, become hectic, you will automatically downgrade the "good" kihon you have to good fighting form. If you train on a lower stringency level, your body will downgrade from that and you will fight with shitty form. You had that 100% right.

You can easily spot, in wkf karate at least, what fighters have taken kihon seriously.

1. Their fights are cleaner, they have less waste movement which translates to speed and timing.
2. The even easier way: look who got the medals

My personal view though is that Kyokushin is getting a bit weird now, at least I don't get it. People just trading half-assed blows in a fight of endurance. I don't see the karate in it anymore, not as in Kyokushin videos 30 years ago. Maybe kata and kihon has less applicability in that setting.

Work on that anyway though. The responsibility to find the fighting skills there is yours. You're on the right path to understanding this.

[u/oniDblue → u/LawfulnessPossible20]

Thanks for the info - and yes that makes sense 😄

My sensei (and dojo) very much train in the "old" Kyokushin style - full contact sparring with minimal gear (controlled when we do it tho and with beginners). He is also an older Shihan and has an established lineage.

I get what you mean about "new" Kyokushin getting a bit weird - but for me, I'll still keep working on the Kihon and try to really understand it!

I'm thinking of them now as sort of building blocks (like scales in music, or letters in the alphabet to form words and sentences) and as tools.

Question for the basic blocks (like Gedan barai and Jodan uke), when you block a kick for example (gedan barai) is it more of a redirection with a relaxed arm rather then a strong "block"?? More of a soft hands push? And in sparring when I do this (I actualyl did some off instinct in sparring and was pretty proud as it related to my kihon) what sort of openings/follow ups can you do with it (combos)? Like, when I it, my body sort of looses position and can't follow up. Any tips?

Thanks SOOO much for the detailed response 👍

[u/LawfulnessPossible20 → u/oniDblue]

All hard blocks suck IMO. I have, however, been wrong before. Take it for what it's worth.

The idea about excellence in a martial art is to be better than the opponent. If you try to go hard on a block to the point where there is 50/50 whose arm will break - yours or your opponent's - then you're down at 50% to win the fight. If you're the better fighter you should even prefer 0/0 over 90/10. Why accept 10% for a broken arm if you're 100% to win a few seconds later?

If your block just makes your opponent miss, or hit poorly, or hit with reduced power, it served its purpose. Explore blocking in a accentuated forward angle instead of to the side, for a regular yoko uke for example. Watch how it messes up the opponent's ability to use their bodies. I have an old school sensei who blocks me EVERY GODDAM TIME so that my arm gets in the way of my other arm. If I go for a two strike combo he only needs to block it once. It's beautiful.

Follow up capacity comes exactly from where you're thinking right now. If you don't overinvest in your techniques but keep them light and nimble, you will not mess up your rythm, footing, balance.

Speed kills, as the saying goes. Don't sacrifice your form for "power". 10% of the max power you can generate with a kick on full throttle will also drop your opponent if it hits. So don't do full throttle to the extent it messes up your form, because good form gives you an environment your body recognizes. Your kihon will work then and produce fast, repetitive, and no-waste-movement violence.

[u/Odd-Engineering-7959 → u/LawfulnessPossible20]

Fellow Shito-Ryu practitioner here. A well executed block can end a fight really quickly. Done well, basic blocks such as the yoko-uchi or yoko-uke are meant to break the attacker's arm at the elbow joint. I did it once to some guy who tried to grab my collar and pick a fight. That sent him a clear message to stop messing around with me and he backed off with a wounded arm and ego.

[u/Even-Pangolin3307]

Gichin Funakoshi said karate begins and ends with kata. Kata is the accumulation of kihon in predefined patterns.

For what are we doing these? You already made some great guesses. Balance, power etc. and that is right. Will you use these in actual kumite? Yes, you will use all of that. Power, balance, speed and muscle memory, everything comes into use in the fight. Will u use stances and traditional punches in kumite? No.

Think of it like learning art/drawing or music. You could take an instrument or pen and copy some good art. Repeat. Repeat. And at one point you may be able to make some good progress, maybe are able to play different songs and draw something but you don't understand the structure behind it. You need the basics, the lame strokes, the boring music scale repeat. If you want to bringing great in karate, you will need to learn the basics in kihon to understand karate.

If you want to be a good fighter, learn fighting not karate. Karate (and any traditional martial art) is more than just kumite. That's why there is a "Do" in it. Ju-Do, Karate-Do, Taekwon-Do.

[u/Peakychu6]

This opinion will ruffle A LOT of feathers here, but it’s honest and comes from a place of experience:

Background: I have a brown belt in Shotokan. I have a black belt in shaolin Kempo. After the that I cross trained into boxing&muay Thai and my experience opened my eyes to the point I began training the latter full time.

• Point 1: you train how you fight and you fight how you train. That’s how you build habits and reflexes.

Think about it, if you were learning English as a second language and called dogs “poggies” instead of dogs, when it’s time to refer to a dog in conversation you would call it “poggie”, out of reflex. Even if someone came up with the explanation “we “train” poggie but you’re supposed to say dog, and there is a bunkai (application) to the word poggie, and said bunkai is “dog”, it doesn’t matter, you are saying “poggie” instead of dog all the time, and that’s what you’re going to say.

• point 2: you’re not training how you’d fight with kihon and kata 

We go back to “poggie” vs “dog”.  No one is going to step in and do a perfect zenkutsu dachi oi tsuki with hikite in a real fight, and nobody is going to sit in kiba dachi and start throwing punches chambering the other hand to the side (again, hikite).  B-but “stances are not meant to be dynamic! They’re supposed to be like a snapshot in time!”…. “But hikite symbolizes grabbing someone and pulling him towards you!!”… etc etc. yeah yeah I know, all these moves “symbolize something else” or “have a hidden application” or “teach an application that your sensei must explain to you”… *that sounds awfully similar to the poggie and dog analogy, doesn’t it?

My take: karate is a cultural product. Especially since it comes from older Okinawan traditions that also incorporated even older Chinese traditions. There is a lot of stuff in there that’s just cultural and traditional. We’re basically learning Chinese traditional medicine instead of modern medicine (antibiotics, pills, vaccines, etc). 

There is also the fact that Okinawa te was adapted so it could be used in the Japanese school system as a fitness program, so yeah. 

Dont get me wrong I loooooove karate, that’s why I am in this sub, lol. And I do think it’s good for self defense.

[u/Comprehensive_Mud803]

Yes. Everything is relevant.

The low stances translate to leg workouts that lead to more stability and faster movements in kumite. Better footwork if you want.

[u/j0shman]

Yes it’s all relevant, you may not need it at the time for a specific attacker, but the basics are fundamental to build upon for more complex move sets that you will use.

[u/Tchemgrrl]

I think scales is a good way of thinking about it. I also think of emergency personnel, who train so that that the right thing comes out when they are nervous or tired or frightened. Some examples of things you are practicing while calm so you can execute them while stressed include good balance when moving, keeping strong fundamentals, keeping track of where your body is located in space, paying attention to many different things at once.

[u/WastelandKarateka]

That depends entirely on how you learn to use those movements. If you only ever learn the childrens' karate applications, then, no, you really won't be using them in kumite or self-defense, besides the most loose interpretations of them. If you learn how to actually apply them realistically, then you'll use them all the time.

[u/Arokthis]

You pretty much answered your own question when you brought up musical scales. I played violin from 4 to 14 (hating every minute of it) and there are beginner basic exercises that professionals still do daily. 

IMO kata is a lot like spelling words. Fukyugata Ichi is "CAT DOG MOUSE" and not much more, while later kata introduce new "letters" to your body's "alphabet"  -  you may or may not use them all the time, but at least you know they exist. 

[u/chrisjones1960]

Basics are for teaching you. How to move, not for directly teaching you how to fight. However, the basic versions of a block or a punch are designed to be a way in which you can learn the details of that block or punch and how to do it powerfully.

If I teach my new students how to use say a middle block the way it is used while fighting, it is likely that most of them will have no power in that block. But if they have been practicing doing chudan soto uke from zenkutsu dachi, and then I show them how to use that block in fighting, they have the body mechanics down and can actually make the block effective.

Similarly, nobody should be pulling their hand back to chamber when punching during sparring. However, chambering the opposite hand during basics helps one learn how to put power into the punch, so that one can do so even without literally pulling the hand back to chamber.

[u/Wdpky]

100%. yes getting the techniques down definitely carries over into kumite IF YOU DO IT RIGHT (I see a lot, especially kids that technique goes out the door when they first spar, but getting back to it improves things tremendously. There are basic techniques that eventually you'll expand upon combining and adjusting, and there are rules early on that get broken later (always block with your front hand) makes sense for a beginner, but you'll learn to do more, but the basics are the foundation of your karate. learn those and learn them well. Find what works well for you.

My Sensei made a comment during training early on about a hook kick, many were struggling with it, and he said many don't use it as it is a little awkward, but others get it down and are deadly with it. My son (being the smart alec) went home and practiced that harder than anything, now his hook kicks (as well as many ofther variations) are better than most well above his rank.

The work you put into the basics, WILL show in your skills down the road.

[u/Jumpy-Equal5052]

Kihon is foundational to karate, it cannot be overemphasized. Everything you do here will be built on the muscle memory developed in kihon. Learn it and learn it well so that you don’t have to ”remember” it when needed. It’s second nature and will be there. Don’t be in a hurry, and it will develop. Make sure you compare what you are doing to what your seniors do, so you can actively adjust your form to be more like your seniors. Keep doing that and you’ll be fine.

[u/cfwang1337]

I'm going to take a slightly different tack than most answers.

A lot of kihon don't really carry over into Kyokushin-style kumite, at least not without enough alteration that they become entirely different moves. The rules and competitive format of full-contact, bare-knuckle fighting incentivize a very specific kind of meta that doesn't represent the full spectrum of unarmed fighting.

Most kihon do carry over in some way to real combat, but more often as (usually jacketed) clinching, grip-fighting, and takedowns than striking (see the whole "practical karate" movement).

[u/Chair_Oh_Key]

Katas are grappling drill training regiments. Im sure there alot of Karate practitioners that would disagree with me but not much from Kata carries over to Kumite. Thats because Kumite is medium distance fighting. Everything you learn is Kata is for close distance grappling. When you drill Kihon, you're basically writing the letter A over and over again. Think of it as learning the very basics of a new language. The stances are just split second snapshots in time showing your where to shift your weight when practicing a grappling concept from Kata.

[u/ikilledtupac]

what do you mean by “combat”? like Krav Maga theatrics?

if I get in a fight and I know how to punch and block and the other guy doesn’t, I like my odds better.

[u/oniDblue → u/ikilledtupac]

Hey! Thanks - I mean in Kumite.

[u/ikilledtupac → u/oniDblue]

oh right. all of it.

[u/oniDblue → u/ikilledtupac]

All of it transfers to kumite? I'm learning and practicing things like Taikyoko Ichi, rising and sweeping block - all of that too? I don't see how the stances do?

[u/ikilledtupac → u/oniDblue]

why would you? you’re a white belt. just show up.

[u/oniDblue → u/ikilledtupac]

Osu.

[u/Funny-Permission-535 → u/oniDblue]

Stance is the foundation of your block. It matters more than the actual block. If youre not rooted you will easily be knocked off balance

[u/OyataTe]

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