r/karate • u/Additional-Board-819 ◼️ 1st Dan Blackbelt in Sentou Karate, 🟧 Orange belt in Judo • Aug 17 '26
Discussion Karate credibility
Does a Karate style not founded in Japan lose its credibility as a Karate style? This has been a debate from the Japanese martial artists who say that Karate not founded in Japan or a non Japanese founder of a style is not Karate cause it didn’t originate in their country.
There are hundreds of karate styles in the world and some of them didn’t originate in Japan or Okinawa, but those countries still respect their roots in Japanese Karate hence why they call it Karate. Some are effective and even has MMA fighters from their style, but I do understand some that are obviously mcdojos (95% of them are in america) that only use the word “karate” cause it’s famous.
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u/Wooden-Glove-2384 Aug 17 '26
Karate wasn't founded in Japan
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u/GroundbreakingHope57 Aug 17 '26
Gonna be real karate would be in a much better place if it was given to literally anyone other than the Japanese...
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u/Wooden-Glove-2384 Aug 17 '26
IDK
The standardization wasn't a bad thing, they just took it waaaaaaaaaaay too far.
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u/karainflex Shotokan Aug 17 '26
Like Calandra said in his podcast: They claim your Karate is bad if you don't do tournaments and don't collect trophies. Yeah, right. Keep thinking that on the other side of the globe; meanwhile we made a working self defense system out of it.
I think it is important to keep international connections for exchange and development but nobody has to pay tribute to Japan. Karate wasn't their invention: Okinawa was not Japanese and their inhabitants were treated like 3rd class people for a long, long time. That should suffice to make them shut up.
And I bet there are enough cases where they (including the current Okinawans) just sell certificates to the rest of the world. If the people there never saw me or my instructor or my instructor's instructor that implied value of a grading certificate is pretty void. And if they teach different content it is void also because it is just buying a license to use a certain name.
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u/GrimPotatoKing Aug 17 '26 edited Aug 17 '26
Having trained in multiple dojo's in Canada and across Japan over 25 years I can say with personal certainty that the farther a dojo is from it's Japanese roots the more commercial it becomes. It may be because of the high rents in Canada but if you actually want to learn how to manage violence(outside of Japan), I would recommend kickboxing. Japanese karate is practical, violent and always modernizing. I never met a Sensei in Japan that wasn't carved from stone and laser focused on perfecting the basics.
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u/WastelandKarateka Shorin-Ryu & KishimotoDi Aug 17 '26
I think that it is very popular for people who are members of major organizations to say things like that. There is an inherent elitism built into karate, thanks in no small part to the hierarchical structure of ranks and titles, and the politics of organizations. Not too long ago, I had someone in the Shorin-Ryu organization I used to belong to rant about how I am no longer legitimate because I was promoted--after an appropriate amount of time, and being evaluated by someone several ranks higher than me in a legitimate style, I might add--by someone from outside of my original lineage who wasn't a member of a major organization connected to Okinawa.
It's a bit like religion, in a way. They feel a need for authority and deference, and they only get that within their specific hierarchy, so in order to feel better about not having that authority and deference from EVERYONE, they have to find reasons why those people just aren't as good/legitimate/etc. The in-group is the only one that matters, and everyone else sucks. It's exhausting, honestly, especially when you consider the fact that many Okinawans have said that you can now find better karate outside Okinawa.
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u/Brilliant_Chemica Aug 17 '26
Not really an answer to your question, just a little insight into my gym. I train MMA, not Karate, but our club has its roots in Karate. We don't do any Kata, but we are taught the japanese names for moves and refer to our coaches/upper class men as Sensei and Senpai. We have a belt system based on a curriculum. The founder of the club was a karate practicioner for many years before he started cross-training jiu-jutsu and wrestling and then started teaching a combination of it all for MMA. He even works with the govenment in selecting a preparing our national karate and kickboxing teams each year.
I certainly don't consider myself a karate student, and the club is very upfront that we are not a karate school. My Sensei has even said that we should consider our striking skills as Kickboxing, but the karate influence was very interesting to me when I started
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u/thrownkitchensink wado-ryu Aug 17 '26
No, credibility is in how strong the lineage is though. How many years did your teachers learn and study before they started teaching? How many hours per year? Did they continue to be a student when they started teaching?
Some students go back 100 years if they look at four steps in their lineage. Right back to the founder of a style. Other students go back 30 years. That's not a golden rule for quality but some karate has been diluted so much that only the outside is still standing. The uniforms, bad reigi and the most basic of forms. Sometimes combined with athletic skills to compensate.
In the end for me it's in quality of movement.
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u/imperial_jedi_clone Aug 17 '26
It's also the quality of teaching. Some may practice styles that hail from the original founders, but that doesn't mean it's been passed on well.
Further, it doesn't matter how long they've been teaching or studying if the material isn't actually that good under scrutiny. Yes, longevity is a heuristic, but I still wouldn't say it's evidence of quality.
Credibility, I would say, comes from comparison and one's own discernment. Lineage can be useful information, but it doesn't establish quality by itself
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u/thrownkitchensink wado-ryu Aug 17 '26
I agree. Having a great teacher and studying with them for a long time doesn't make someone a great teacher.
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u/CS_70 Aug 17 '26
That would be odd, as karate is not Japanese but developed in the Ryukyu kingdom and was brought into Japan only since the 1920s.
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u/One_Construction_653 Aug 17 '26 edited Aug 17 '26
An art influenced by chinese kung fu made in okinawa renamed karate
Sure.
These days credibility is based on if you can win tournaments with it unfortunately
And only about 35% of people in a single gym/dojo compete regularly
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u/ChrisInSpaceVA Shidokan Shorin Ryu Aug 18 '26
Not all dojos are sport karate dojos. Tournaments wins are not the only measure of quality. A lot of excellent dojos never compete in tournaments.
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u/East-Yogurtcloset396 Aug 17 '26
How about a karate style that has lineage, but was founded in Canada, and is now headed by an Okinawan?
I know such a thing exists.
Some people consider some kickboxing styles to be karate.
And a similar situation with judo. There are more people who practice judo in France than in Japan.
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u/Additional-Board-819 ◼️ 1st Dan Blackbelt in Sentou Karate, 🟧 Orange belt in Judo Aug 17 '26
In my karate style the founder is a Filipino, but he’s a 3rd dan blackbelt in Shotokan and a Kyokushin blackbelt and part of the Kyokushin Philippine team in the 2000s. In 1998 he created his own karate style that’s been going on for 27 years now and is super big here in the Philippines. Our style is founded in the philippines. Ours is like MMA but with Gi
Does our lineage count on Shotokan and Kyokushin even though we have a diff name, style, and kata (modified not diff), ruleset for kumite, and gi (we wear red or black depends on what you like to wear)
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u/blindside1 Kenpo, Kali, and coming back to Goju. Aug 17 '26
Humans are tribal. We tend to look for ways to separate larger groups into smaller groups, usually into "our's" and "their's" and even more commonly into right and wrong.
It sounds like your instructor had solid karate roots before formulating his own system. Undoubtedly some purists would say "that isn't karate" because reasons xyz. I've been around martial arts a long time and these days I am taxanomically a lumper and not a splitter. At this point I'd only call your system "not karate" if the kata were abandoned as a teaching vehicle because they more than anything else act as dna for the system.
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u/Additional-Board-819 ◼️ 1st Dan Blackbelt in Sentou Karate, 🟧 Orange belt in Judo Aug 17 '26
Kata is not abandoned at all. A big rule in our style is to stick with the 5 components while also training modern combat. So he’s really pushing his system to stick with the Karate roots cause that’s how much he respectes the Japanese and Okinawan martial arts. And to get your blackbelt or any other belt you need to perform numbers of Katas depending on the rank you’re getting. I did 15 katas for my blackbelt and 16 for my 1st dan in our style
- Kihon
- Kata
- Kumite
- Tameshiwari
- Bunkai
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u/chrisjones1960 Aug 17 '26
Is a black belt different from a first dan in your style?
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u/Additional-Board-819 ◼️ 1st Dan Blackbelt in Sentou Karate, 🟧 Orange belt in Judo Aug 17 '26 edited Aug 17 '26
Yes it’s called full fledged blackbelt, then you do your test after 2 years of getting the full fledged for your 1st dan. Recently got mine a month ago. Our founder is really strict with the dan promotion cause most people stop learning when they get their blackbelts so yeah most blackbelts in our style is stuck with no dan.
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Aug 17 '26
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u/Additional-Board-819 ◼️ 1st Dan Blackbelt in Sentou Karate, 🟧 Orange belt in Judo Aug 18 '26 edited Aug 18 '26
He created his own style of Karate to be accessible to the people in the Philippines. Mind you that Karate is not free here and some people can’t afford paying for a class. Kyokushin and Shotokan wouldn’t let him teach for free cause he’s under their organization. He had to pay for fees to stay in the org (normal for any organization) He created his own so he can teach for free to people who can’t afford it. Why affiliate when you can create, right? Plus he’s totally eligible to create since he’s a 3rd dan blackbelt in Shotokan and also a blackbelt in kyokushin with an accolade of being part of the kyokushin philippine team. His style has been around for 27 yrs and is super big in the philippines. We have branches around Southeast asia, Africa, Pakistan, and America. We’ve produced MMA fighters in ONE, BraveFC, and GMA. We have 2 local MMA champions in the biggest Mma promotion in the philippines all because of the Free teachings our founder did. We had kickboxing fighters. Our org has been invited to compete in several Kyokushin tournaments in the Philippines even tho it’s not our style, but we still keep on winning trophies from them. That for me is legit karate. Staying in the roots with the Kata that are modified (but still the same), still doing Kihon, still doing Tameshiwari, still doing Bunkai, and active in Kumite.
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u/goldenglory86 17d ago
Modern Shotokan and Kyokushin's katas are questionable, in Okinawan practitioners' eyes.
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u/featurist Goju/Shotokan Aug 17 '26
What style is that?
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u/East-Yogurtcloset396 Aug 17 '26
I belive this is the case with a branch of Shorin- Ryu.
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Aug 17 '26
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u/East-Yogurtcloset396 Aug 17 '26
Might have misread something. A Shorin- Ryu club in Norway was founded by someone who learned Shorin- Ryu in Canada. They might have had Okinawan head instructors...
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u/featurist Goju/Shotokan Aug 17 '26
The original question above is about Karate Styles that are not founded in Japan (or Okinawa.) What you are describing here is someone opening a dojo, not founding a style. In your reply, you clarify that a Shorin-ryu dojo was opened by someone that learned an existing style in Canada. That is substantially different to opening a dojo in order to start a new style.
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u/shinoya7 Aug 17 '26
I can kinda understand this viewpoint. Probably because I’m American and during the 60-90s karate was essentially used as a marketing term. It was the most popular foreign martial arts during those times and people opening schools and wanting to maybe offer something “different” would use karate somewhere in their marketing or naming of their school/style.
TKD used to be called Korean karate for marketing. Even people that used to do it would just say they do karate or non-practitioners would just say karate when they see someone in a white uniform with a belt.
I think the important question to ask is why is the “new” karate style/s not still under the name of its original karate style(the ones officially recognized in Japan or Okinawa). If it’s not, then that means they’re either doing things that style doesn’t, which means they’re not that style anymore, or they possibly don’t agree with the viewpoints of the original style, which again means they’re not the style.
I do Wado. If I started teaching things that aren’t Wado or going against Wado’s principles, then I’m no longer doing Wado. I might still call it karate just because what I’m doing IS based off of an original Japanese karate style. But I most definitely couldn’t call it Wado anymore.
A good example is when Wado was brought into France. A Japanese practitioner(Hiroshima Mochizuki) came to France to establish Wado. But because of his fathers influence while he was there(Minoru Mochizuki), he incorporated many other things alongside Wado to where it became a completely different thing, Yoseikan Budo(Yoseikan-ryu Gyokushin Jujutsu). It might still have some Wado elements to it, buts definitely no longer a karate style. And thus he no longer calls it karate.
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u/Peakychu6 Aug 17 '26 edited Aug 17 '26
Karate is Okinawan (they always make that distinction, even though Okinawa is now part of Japan). And IIRC mas oyama was Korean (but he was in japan).
I think that karate is more tied to a lineague/teacher, more than a piece of land, but the distinction is almost equivalent.
If itosu had taken a trip to France and he had taught some French dude Okinawa-te (like he did with funakoshi) and Mr. French guy had created “Oui Ryu” (instead of Shotokan) and popularized it all over Europe I’d say that’s legit karate.
But if it’s some dude that learned “chuan fa” in Hawaii and then came to the mainland and started teaching modified Shotokan and then called it “American karate” I’d say that’s not karate
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u/Active_Unit_9498 Aug 17 '26
People respect results. Nobody was talking shit to Chuck Lidell because he did Hawaiiian Kempo.
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u/StillLovedByGod Aug 17 '26
I think it depends on what we mean by "Karate." Historically, Karate's roots are undeniably Okinawan and Japanese, so a style with no connection to that lineage should be questioned. However, a style does not lose credibility simply because it was developed outside Japan. Martial arts evolve as they spread to new cultures. The real measure should be lineage, training methods, technical quality, and the integrity of the instructors—not just the nationality of the founder. A McDojo can exist anywhere, while a legitimate Karate system can exist anywhere.
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u/kitkat-ninja78 TSD & Shotokan 4th Dan | 3rd Kyu Shorin-Ryu | Iaido | Jiujitsu Aug 19 '26
Does a Karate style not founded in Japan lose its credibility as a Karate style?
No, just look at Tang Soo Do (Korea, there is a debate on whether or not it's really karate - plus there are different styles within TSD, but in my opinion it is), Kajukenbo (Hawaii), Ishinryu (England, not to be confused with Isshin-Ryu), for instance...
It loses credibility when it starts offering low quality ineffective training, and charging very high prices for very little.
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u/OGWayOfThePanda Aug 17 '26
It does, but it shouldn't, given that Karate is not Japanese.
Karate loses its credibility by having a Japanese founder instead of an Okinawan.
Karate loses credibility because the styles practiced are not founded by Chinese martial artists too.
In the end it's all just a con meant to keep power and prestige in a small group.
That is not to say that there isn't loss of knowledge between these groups, there almost certainly is. To this day I cringe watching Goju ryu Sanchin having learned a white crane variant.
But the fact is people enjoy what they do and they learn what they need to for their own purposes most of the time.
If people think you have to go to the source to learn real karate, then ultimately it means that the teachers and their ranking systems suck. If i certify an aerospace engineer, I don't expect anyone to look at his new aeroplane and say, "its ok but we need to find his teacher for a really great aeroplane."
Either these folks can teach so the people who come after them in other countries are just as good, or they can't teach so it doesn't matter where you learn.
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u/Background_Tie_5466 Aug 17 '26
Well, as old masters used to say: everything is karate.
They only named karate because the emperor wanted something national from japan instead of "Chinese hand" (tode)
Just like Koreans created taekwondo instead of "Korean karate" (tang soo do)
In the end. All it matters is if the master is good teaching or not. Just like many Japanese karate masters have lost touch by training a "performative" karate.
Let's not forget Oyama created Kyokushin with the same criticism that karate lost its way and became performative.
The only grain of salt I will give you is. Even though you may be aware of this, you have to understand how the average citizen will perceive a karate that "it's not japanese"
And how big is the organization you are being part of. In case you move and want to keep practicing and what not.
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u/Abject-Parsnip-970 Goju-Ryu Aug 18 '26
Considering Karate didn't even originate in Japan to begin with, I'd say no.
If it works it works.
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u/thedojoguy Aug 22 '26 edited Aug 22 '26
Not necessarily. But man, I admit many American "Karate" Styles, really put this to the test.
I was going to say that there aren that many karate styles around the world. The reason for me saying this is because most serious karate dojos can trace their roots back to only a handful of karate styles. Most of them: Shotokan, Shito Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Goju Ryu, Isshin Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Wado Ryu, Kyokushin, Shorinji Ryu, Chito Ryu, Motobu Ryu. Most schools come from one of those styles. I mean serious schools. Now most of those schools have branches in many countries. This is one of the reasons for which lineage matters. It's not a guarantee, but it is the first step in making sure you're training something legitimate. The second thing is your Sensei and what he promises to teach. As long as you do a "background" check on those 2, I think the dojo is legit and has excellent credibility no matter where it is located.
From my experience I do think that the training is way more strict and focused in Japan and Okinawa (damn, specially Okinawa) but that doesn't make dojos overseas fake.
Understanding the syle you're training vs what you expect is very important too. Many people dislike traditional training because they want more sports oriented training or more full contact training. Likewise, some people dislike full contract training, because they expect something that allows them to grow at their own rythm and develop other skills. Your personal liking for a specific training, doesn't invalidate other types of training. You simply have to focus on finding what is right for you.
Now I've spoken about credibility and legit dojos. BUT, there is this elephant in the room that has to do with McDojos, and fakes. People who will claim to have learned or trained with X or Y and just looking at their shikodachi is enough to know they're full of it. Those are more rare in Japan and Okinawan and more common in other countries, sadly, but particularly the US. That doesn't mean every dojo in the US is a fake. Not at all. But it does mean that you need to pay attention to what I mentioned earlier.
Run from LGBT themed belts, eagles on karategi, flags in the back, chi masters, clearly obese and completely unfit instructors, and dojos more concerned about money than teaching and 11th Dan teachers. Those are kind of obvious.
I know I said "dojos" throughout my comment, but I think the same applies for styles.
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u/goldenglory86 22d ago
Actually, the art is Okinawan and not Japanese. The art existed, even before Okinawa became part of Japan.
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u/goldenglory86 17d ago
The problem with modern styles are most of the movement aren't authentic anymore, you can tell it through Katas and Bunkai (maybe something to do with their own interpretation). I noticed it from training Kyokushin to Shorin Ryu.
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u/SolidInstance9945 Aug 17 '26
If you are small built you benefit from a traditional Japanese instructor.
The emphasis is to use the entire body to generate force.
Also the last microsecond stiffening of the striking limb is difficult to master if you are tall and muscular
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u/InstructionBoth8469 Aug 17 '26
Personally, I prefer the Japanese style of Karate. I think Okinawa style has its roots too deep in tradition. I have been a few times and under a few different masters. You can see its kung fu roots and I do like it as an experience. But I wasn’t impressed by its theory’s of combat
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u/GroundbreakingHope57 Aug 17 '26
Why would the japanese style be literally any better in fact their even worse!
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u/Gudeezo Aug 17 '26
Tbh not really sure any opinion matters if it doesn't come from someone who has originally studied and learned Karate from Japan and historical dojos but here goes nothing. For me it makes sense to still be considered karate if it stays close to the core philosophy of empty handed combat and discipline training, along with having the same katas and names for the techniques, as long as they are accurately adapted. You can't have a roundhouse punch and call it "yoko geri" to give an example. Now depending on the style it might be softer or stricter and focused differently maybe as a form of exercise for the elderly, those are still definetly credible so I don't see how a global phenomenon immediately loses its credibility. Maybe it's more susceptible to scrutiny but there are definitely still practices that stick to all the values outside of Japan. If you learn German in the US from a teacher that isn't German did you learn German or English? Simple as that.