r/karate • u/Informal_Writing9238 • Apr 19 '26
Kihon/techniques Name of circular block in Nijushiho (Niseshi)
Hello there. I am looking for the name of the distinctive circular two-handed block in Nijushiho. It is used e.g. in the fifth movement of the kata, the first time you turn around after the opening sequence, right before Awase Zuki.
Thank you for your help!
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u/AnonymousHermitCrab Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
That's going to depend on interpretation—a lot of lineages (most of the Shōtōkan karate lineages I'm seeing included) seem to interpret that movement as simply entering a kamae. Take the description on u/MarkLGlasgow's project (https://katastepbystep.com/19-nijushiho/) which describes it as ryōken ryōgoshi-gamae ("both fists [at] both hips posture").
For example, in Orthodox Shitō-ryū the equivalent movement is semi-officially described simply as "both ken pull to each side of the waist as hikite." The school I attend, however, interprets the movement as a modified outside block (which Shitō-ryū would call soto uke or yoko uke, and a Shōtōkan karate school would likely call uchi uke).
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u/MarkLGlasgow Apr 19 '26
FYI - I took that name from Nakayama's Best Karata book on Nijushiho (which also aligns with Kanazawa). The view being that this is not just a simple pull to the waist, but a cross-arm sweeping motion (e.g., breaking a double-handed grab). But as r/AnonymousHermitCrab says, it really will depend on the interpretation.
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u/Informal_Writing9238 Apr 19 '26
Great to hear from you, thank you for your answer. How would you name such a cross-arm sweeping motion in Karate terms?
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u/MarkLGlasgow Apr 19 '26
It depends on whether you interpret it as separate from ryōken ryōgoshi-gamae or just the method to get to that position (which I would). I guess technically you could call it a double arm circular sweep - therefore morote mawashi barai?
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u/Informal_Writing9238 Apr 19 '26
Barai, yes, I like this idea. Mawashi Uke would be a different movement for me in the way I learned it. So, (Morote) Mawashi Barai is a fine way of distinguishing both. And it highlights the sweeping movement nicely.
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u/Informal_Writing9238 Apr 19 '26
Thank you for your answer. Yes, the kamae positions get descriptions and names everywhere I looked. But the way you get there doesn´t. However, it seems to be more than just getting into kamae for me. I feel like it is something of a Morote Soto Mawashi Uke. But Mawashi Uke in itself is quite different. So the movement needs a describing name, as I feel. If there is none yet - any suggestions?
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u/AnonymousHermitCrab Apr 19 '26
If you're naming it based on its application then you really need to have a clear idea of the application you're naming it around. I don't really know how you're thinking of applying it, so I'm not sure I can offer a ton of help. Maybe if you got a video of the movement being applied the way you're thinking.
If you're just describing the motion, then I don't really find a point to it (I don't like the separation of movement and application). I were forced to I'd just use English to say something like "swing the arms over to a cross-writsted position, then pull both fists to either chamber" (i.e. pull to ryōken ryōgoshi-gamae).
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u/Informal_Writing9238 Apr 19 '26
That is a very intelligent answer, thank you. My problem is: I want to write down a short sequence of techniques for students to train and this move is one of them. It's on them to find their own application. I do have my own ideas, but do not want to impose it on them in this case. So I would need to stick to descriptions of the movement instead of the application. Maybe for now I will just call it the Nijushiho Uke and describe it like you said in a side note.
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u/OyataTe Apr 19 '26
We did NiSeiShi and never got a specific name, though the Okinawans tended to not name near as much as the Japanese. Oyata would just say, do this and not give specific names.
If for your specific group curriculum, I would just suggest maybe breaking bits of the kata into chunks and for them just saying Group 1, group 2, et cetera.
Also amazes me how different the versions of this kata can be, by either name. My ever longing to have access to a time machine to study each branch and they occurred...
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u/Informal_Writing9238 Apr 19 '26
Oh yes, I am totally with you on this. Also, sometimes I feel like asking these questions doesn't give me answers to my questions, but insights about the way I think that I wasn't even aware of. But this then helps me get further in a completely different way again. I the end, simplicity seems to be the key quite often. In this case: Doing sth or naming it just as what it is.
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u/karatetherapist Shotokan Apr 19 '26
Have you ever been to a creativity seminar, and the instructor puts a box of seemingly random items on the table, asking each group to invent as many "products" as they can with those items?
Kata is the box of items.
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u/Informal_Writing9238 Apr 19 '26
Yeah, something I like about Kata! The problem for me is: I have this one item and want to write down it's name for others to remember it as one part of a collection, without long explanations. Hence, the search for a name.
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u/karatetherapist Shotokan Apr 19 '26
I get it, we have to communicate what we're doing. Nakayama and Gigo (mostly) named all the techniques because Funakoshi didn't have names for them. He was shown, repeated them, done. But, you can't do that when you have 500 students instead of one.
I learned it as mawashi-uke.
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u/Informal_Writing9238 Apr 19 '26
Thanks for the insight, I didn't know that. I have been taught a Mawashi Uke that is a different technique, quite the opposite, circular from inside to outside, as the very last move of Nijushiho. So I did not want others to mix these up when writing down this type of "Nijushiho Uke".
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u/karatetherapist Shotokan Apr 19 '26
Ah, yes, the last move. My mind was on the uke portion. Lost my attention span.
Both Sugiyama (from Nishiyama) and Nakayama call this "ryo ken awase-zuki." The idea, according to Nakayama, is right face punch (migi ken jodan-zuki) and left solar-plexus strike (hidari, ken chudan-zuki). The top hand hides the lower.
This is followed by migi tekubi chudan makiotoshi with hidari teisho hidari kataguichi ni kamaeru.
And finally migoi chudan teisho-zuki with hidari jodan teisho-zuki.
So, the last ones hit with a palm-heel (teisho).
The circular hand motion clears the way. Could be blocks. Could be "get off me" style hand movements. Then sudden whip back and out strikes. Good times!
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u/Informal_Writing9238 Apr 19 '26
Well sorry for any mix ups. My question was actually about the Uke part. And your attention span seems to be just fine. What I meant: The part of stretching your arms and fingers like a crane's wings, circling them up on the outside, stretching further than your body's width, continuing to circle while crossing them in front of your forehead and then finishing the circle on the way down in front of your body. That's the "Soto Mawashi Uke" (as I would have called it) or the "Morote Mawashi Barai" (as was suggested to me here) that I was initially asking about.
What I have been taught as Mawashi Uke: Right that circular motion in reverse (also in smaller movements), from inside to outside, with one hand ending up in front of your hip and the other in front of the shoulder. In Nijushiho it's the one before the final strike that you are describing so well and that could be a whole new thread on its own.
So, both "get off me" style, but quite different.
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u/karatetherapist Shotokan Apr 19 '26
I'm a bit of a dork about these things, too. Nijushiho was my sandan kata back in 92, so I have a love/hate relationship with it.
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u/Informal_Writing9238 Apr 19 '26
Totally! It was my sandan Kata, as well, but only last year. Together with Bassai Sho, as I had to prepare two Kata.
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u/karatetherapist Shotokan Apr 19 '26
Bassai Sho is so hard to do well. I guess you did. Congrats.
Back then, we did long seminars (usually 4 days) where those testing (hmm, testes?) were taught, observed, had to teach others, kihon, kata, kumite over those days, and on the last half-day was a pressure test more than technical, which had been decided by then. Good thing, too, because we were usually the walking dead by then.
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u/Informal_Writing9238 Apr 20 '26
Thank you. And sounds like tough, but very fun times. In a more condensed way I know this from seminars that are mostly a day or a weekend. The point of pressure testing is to be highlighted, I think. I am with Motobu Choki on this and say that none of your karate techniques and no movement should be hollow, meaningless. Although now the real movement and the real meaning may have been altered over time.
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Apr 19 '26
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u/Informal_Writing9238 Apr 20 '26
Interesting. The last syllable of Nijushi"ho" just means "steps", so that is coherent to your name. Concerning interpretation, the classic would be sweeping away a two handed grab. However, I can see a lot of movements involved in this, depending on the scenario. A key aspect for me is that the wide, flashy looking moves often used to be from Wushu in very early times or for a show aspect after Tode was transferred into Karate. You always have something to be interested in and to work on further.
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Apr 20 '26
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u/Informal_Writing9238 Apr 21 '26
It is not my interpretation of choice, either. In some training situations it worked while stepping backwards and redirecting the grab to a downward movement. But what I like more are the options where you use the technique to slide to the outside or to trap an arm.
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