r/karate • u/Sorry_Valuable_489 • Apr 12 '26
Discussion "This isn't Karate because it works".
I have been training karate my whole life. I have also trained several other martial arts as well but I consider myself to be karate-ka first and foremost. Let me explain a situation I have ran into many, many times.
I will train with people who do other styles like muay thai/boxing/etc and they will inevitably tell me that they don't believe karate works. So I will offer to spar full contact at whatever intensity level they are comfortable with (within reason) and do my best to show that karate works when done correctly.
This is usually what I run into when I handle myself well and sometimes even get the best of them - "yeah but you aren't doing karate". I am told because my hands are held up high, I am actually boxing/kickboxing. Because I am throwing kicks to the legs, I am actually doing muay thai. Because I am slipping punches, I am actually just boxing. Because I square my stance to defend take downs/leg kicks, I am actually just going "insert style here".
I always get real confused because all of those things are taught in the various styles of karate. High guard, leg kicks, different stances, slipping, etc. All of that is karate. It's a huge system. Also, are those things really part of any system? Or are they just....common sense? The natural way a human being would defend themselves in those situations.
Has anyone else run into this? Being told their karate actually doesn't work because when you are moving properly, you are really just doing something else. What are your arguments against this? For this? Comments? Thanks.
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u/LegitimateHost5068 Supreme Ultra Grand master of Marsupial style Apr 12 '26
We have open sparring on fridays and I often record the sessions. I had someone accuse me of also "not using karate". The best part is I was able to show him the video and point out where specific sequences i did aganst him were move for move from various kata. The response was "well it doesnt look like any karate Ive ever seen."
Meat heads like joe rogan have made so many people blind to effective martial arts outside of bjj and muay thai.
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u/Online-Demon Apr 14 '26
Joe Rogan has actually acknowledged Kyokushin before, he was amazed at how much power it has and the story of dolph lundgren severely injuring Stallone during the filming of Rocky IV
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u/kitkat-ninja78 TSD & Shotokan 4th Dan | 3rd Kyu Shorin-Ryu | Iaido | Jiujitsu Apr 12 '26
There are several points that I would make...
- There are only so many ways a body can move, there are only so many ways a person can kick, punch, block, etc.
- When people think of karate, they think of the basics, they think of the kata (the "perfect" movements), they think of "tap" scoring and sparring
- They believe that karate is static (never changes or evolves)
- Lastly, people think of McDojos/McDojangs
So if you are doing practical karate - karate‑jutsu that breaks their preconceptions therefore must be not karate.
But that is just my own humble opinion...
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u/Alternative_Fact_428 Apr 14 '26
Last point is most important one. Statistically you are more likely to find a McDojo than a competent one and people think that's karate
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u/Interesting_Pilot_13 Goju Ryu, Kyokushin Apr 12 '26
There's a finite number of ways you can move your limbs and people don't seem to realise this.
When they see an instance of ineffective karate or karate they perceive to be ineffective, they presume that that is how all karate looks. Then when they see a karateka use a technique properly/effectively, these people will then comment things like "he's throwing a muay Thai teep", "karate doesn't have hooks" etc. I've seen it online so many times.
They seem to lack the ability to understand that techniques can be thrown in different ways for different reasons, regardless of the style of martial art you train.
If anyone is giving you grief over it, I'd ignore them; it's not worth trying to explain to them. You know you're a karateka so that's fine enough.
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u/Headoutdaplane Apr 12 '26
OP admits to training other martial arts, so when he is sparring he will use what is most efficient no matter From which MA it comes. From his description he isn't using just karate, from his post it sounds like MMA
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u/OGWayOfThePanda Apr 12 '26
It happens to all traditional arts.
Combat Sports bro's don't know what martial arts are and think the shape of your forms or your competition format is the art.
When you apply principles they get confused.
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u/Peakychu6 Apr 12 '26
I am happy others see this.
I feel there is a HUGE anti-karate bias. For example, I hear this argument a lot:
machida, Thompson, GSP, etc all had to modify their karate in order to make it effective for MMA, it’s no longer karate
Really? In that case boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ and wrestling don’t work either and they’re not really part of MMA because no style is used without modification in MMA.
Wrestlers shouldn’t strike at all then, and neither should BJJ guys. Boxers should never kick or knee or elbow. Muay Thai guys should stick to the Thai stance (with the “bouncing” toes frontal leg) and refrain from any sort of takedown or grappling!
Not only that, but many strikes outside of the traditional Muay Thai and boxing toolkits obviously come from karate, such as back fists, hammer strikes (used in ground and pound), and the ocasional spinning kicks. It’s just that all these moves are assumed to be Muay Thai anyway, and it doesn’t help that some Thai practitioners have actually absorbed these moves (and why wouldn’t they? That’s what martial arts is about!), so even they may think their spinning kicks and backfists are Thai.
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u/eddington_limit Apr 12 '26
Muay Thai guys should stick to the Thai stance
I actually think it's really funny that the more Muay Thai adapts to small gloves and takedowns for MMA, the more it starts to look like karate with wide stances, a looser guard, and an extended cover hand
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Apr 12 '26
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u/Peakychu6 Apr 13 '26
Yeah I am sure they got the hammer fist idea from ancient boxing 🙄
The objection to the back fist is the same situation too: kickboxing came from karate (and you even say the move could be “karate inspired”). No BJJ move is used the same way as in MMA, due to not having a Gi, and BJJ comes from Judo, or at least the original Japanese jiu jitsu, so I guess we can discount BJJ wholesale too… see what I mean ?
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Apr 21 '26
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u/Peakychu6 Apr 21 '26
I use uraken in sparring all the time.
Karate sparring doesn’t use tetsui a lot, if at all, but it’s still a karate move, and this illustrates how karate is held to a double standard. Real (traditional) Muay Thai doesn’t use hammer fists at all, and before it exploded in popularity it was literally boxing punches + thai strikes (elbows, knees, clinch).
If for some reason MMA fighters began using nukite (this will never happen, ever, it’s just a hypothetical) and it got popular people would also use the argument that you don’t see nukite in karate sparring and therefore it’s a Muay Thai or boxing move.
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u/chrisjones1960 Apr 12 '26
After 46 years in one martial art and 36 years in another, I try not to have such arguments. They are, to my mind, pointless. Do what you do
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u/blindside1 Kenpo, Kali, and coming back to Goju. Apr 13 '26
Good job claiming the authority to offer nothing to the conversation.
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u/chrisjones1960 Apr 13 '26
I have no "authority" in the situation, so I didn't claim my to have any. I do have some experience in the matter, and when someone asks "how can I best argue with people who say my martial art is no good," the suggestion that such arguments are not worth having, that the training speaks for itself, coming from someone with significant experience, is actually something to consider, and thus a reasonable addition to the discussion.
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u/blindside1 Kenpo, Kali, and coming back to Goju. Apr 13 '26
Of course you did, that was what your claim of training time is, your experience gives you the perceived authority to comment on the discussion as you reiterate here.
Your answer didn't contribute to what the OP asked for.
To restate in another format:
OP: "How do I explain to my kid why the sky is blue at noon and red at night?"
You: "In my 40 years of being an adult I have learned to not talk about it."
While that may be your opinion it doesn't aid the OP in his discussion with his coworkers.
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u/chrisjones1960 Apr 13 '26
As you wish. I was simply hoping that OP works reconsider having arguments about whether their chosen martial art is "good" or not, as during my own time training, I have found such arguments to be both useless and occasions of unnecessary unpleasantness. Best to find the style that works for you, be open to learning about others, and not get into discussions where folks are just insulting each other's styles. It is a kind of toxic aspect of the martial arts world, so I have learned to avoid it. Just suggesting that OP consider doing so also.
But evidently I somehow pushed your buttons and you are inclined to be unpleasant about it. Not my intention
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u/Flaky_Performer7960 Apr 12 '26 edited Apr 13 '26
Their reaction is quite understandable though.
If a Muay Thai practitioners decides to copy Karate and use ridge hand strikes and snap their kicks, can they claim that its Muay Thai?
You used certain techniques that yes, exist in certain karate styles, but is it taught in your style?
Kyokushin can’t claim to have grappling just because Goju-Ryu has grappling.
If you’ve never trained to keep a high guard and never seen any other martial arts, would you have kept a high guard? Do you train slips in your dojo? If you’re truthful, you’re probably doing these because you’ve taken a look at outside styles.
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u/SnooDoubts4575 Apr 12 '26
Strange, much like people antagonizing religious groups, they don't practice or believe that way, but they somehow know what karate actually is
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u/KatanaMac3001 Apr 12 '26
Years ago, a taller than me friend who was a keen boxer used to kid on about having a fight and as soon as he went into his guard, he'd look down and find my foot lightly touching his kneecap. I knew if one of his punches landed, he'd kill me but if I kicked his kneecaps or shin first, he wasn't getting near me.
Every martial art/fighting skill is useful; they all have their drawbacks and their positives. Immature people trying to say, 'Mine is best' should be ignored. We're all taught to ignore unnecessary provocation.
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u/petebmc Apr 12 '26
Funny that people don’t realize the breath of the system. I was at a full contact stick fighting tournament that allowed grappling. When my opponent tried for a takedown I took his leg out from naihaichin and isshin ryu round house punched his ribs till he submitted.
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u/WaterHound Apr 12 '26
The flip side of this conversation is also what contributes to the misunderstanding in karate.
If karate does something "effective", it's not karate, but if a popular martial arts does something effective, it's always been a part of the art, like a jail sentence with "time served" beforehand.
These days, BJJ is the biggest culprit. It's effective (obviously, I'm not dunking on BJJ), but it also has a (very wise) habit of taking methods from other grappling arts when useful. Since the art is currently at the height of popularity, all of this mostly goes unnoticed.
Every martial art worth its salt should be taking from different sources, evolving, and changing based on practice. Karate has, and should continue to do so as well.
It's just our current "bad" reputation has made it such that any change is met with resistance. Can't have karate being popular if we've decided that it "doesn't work".
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u/thedeepestofstates Apr 12 '26
Because of its overwhelming popularity in the 80's-90's (at least in the US), a large amount of McDojo's popped up and started teaching garbage. Also the sheer number of different schools and styles in Karate is really only rivaled in diversity by those found in Kung Fu, which never became as zeitgeisty as Karate.
Consequently, people's perception of karate is incredibly fragmented, much of it diluted by the prevalence of low-quality, for-profit styles. I'll never blame someone for having a low opinion of karate, but if they don't also have a high opinion of it, I'll know they haven't done their homework.
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Apr 12 '26
I understand the complaint and have actually heard it myself. In fact, I hear this regularly because my sensei says “no no that isn’t karate” when I do things like this:
I am told because my hands are held up high, l am actually boxing/kickboxing. Because I am throwing kicks to the legs, I am actually doing muay thai. Because I am slipping punches, lam actually just boxing. Because I square my stance to defend take downs/leg kicks, I am actually just going "insert style here"
It drives me nuts because I’m convinced he’s never done anything other than point spar in our style.
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u/Shaper_pmp Apr 13 '26
"If you define karate exclusively as the stuff that doesn't work, then of course karate doesn't work".
People get confused and assume because we practice kihon in lines with rigid, formal stances and formal, exaggerated movements that that's what it's supposed to look like when we fight, but that's as dumb as saying boxing doesn't work "because punching bags don't try to hit you back". The point is that that kind of practice is only part of the style, designed to build muscle memory and teach body kinematics.
In reality every style with non-compliant training in it has "practicing the formalised movements" and "applying those lessons less formally in combat".
If they get fixated on the practice and claim the combat "isn't the style" then that says more about their own deficient definitions than anything about the style.
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u/Icarus_K1 Shotokan I Apr 13 '26
Whether it's boxing, judo, Karate, BJJ, etc, we all learn a certain sets of movements, but you being a teacher, teaches that your opponent will not always follow what your exact movement is in kihon/bunkai. As your opponent differs in movement, adapt to take advantage.
I've not seen the boxing guys stand and use the speed bag drill in the ring(a bout), ever, but they still learn it.
We practice certain things, but will always have to adapt, because every opponent is different.
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u/shakar03 Apr 13 '26
They are chatting bollox. Karate in itself is a tool to develop fighting skills. Kata and kihon are "the textbooks " to develop these skills from. Kata has boxing style "slipping" (Wankan kata e.g.) Kata has grappling, throwing, tearing and ripping (heian and tekki katas). It's just hidden. The sports karate we see today was never the intention of the old masters. Karate was never meant to be a "fencing " type of combat.
I'm thrilled you have discovered this as there are not many who have.
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u/eddington_limit Apr 12 '26 edited Apr 13 '26
Keep in mind that the more mainstream "fighting" arts like boxing, Muay Thai, MMA, etc are full of dudes who don't give a fuck about actually knowing anything. They have a very surface level knowledge of things and thats why good coaches are very difficult to find despite practitioners being a dime a dozen. All the best coaches out there steal from karate all the time. Firas Zahabi, one of the best MMA coaches out there has said that he really likes implementing karate into his curriculum and he has worked with Wonderboy and Raymond Daniels and has even told the story on JRE about the 3 kyokushin guys who fought in Thailand, yet these kind of testimonies never seem to make a difference.
I have done the same thing as you when people tell me karate doesnt work. My response is always to offer to spar. Not to toot my own horn but I am a better striker than most people I have come across and like 90% of what I do is traditional karate if not 100%. Good coaches have nerded out with me about karate, bad coaches try to change my style (which trying to change me usually gets me punched in the face), and then people I train with are a big mix of good and bad.
It is what it is and we karate guys have to constantly fight an uphill battle with it. We couldnt even have Karate Combat for ourselves. It's annoying but part of me likes being underestimated and seeing the look on my sparring partners faces when they realize I actually know what I'm doing.
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u/gkalinka Apr 12 '26
- Karate is fighting with empty hands (even though there are traditional weapons).
- Karate is hitting with the power of the whole body, focused in Kime
- You start learning the basics, proceed to complex combinations and end up with free floating kumite using the basic principles.
- Understand the 20 rules of Fukanoshi, Gichin. There are no restrictions on techniques or styles.
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u/trailbooty Apr 12 '26
Umm you’re in a fight. Fight to win. When I spar with someone and they throw something at me I’m not familiar with I’m stoked. Yeah I might have just gotten punched in the face but it’s an opportunity to learn. In a real fight you’re not going to have the luxury of asking an opponent to use a specific technique. Why would one practice with limitations. For me, what I’m studying martial arts for is to win fights. No I’m not looking for fights. But, if one finds me or my family I want to be trained to finish it.
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u/T_Seedling Apr 13 '26
G2 TKD practitioner here, but also K4 in Kyokushin. Can't believe I've just been practicing a snappy version of kickboxing this whole time.
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u/Spyder73 Apr 13 '26
Punching ang kicking only have so many permutations. People shit on karate because of the washouts,not the masters
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u/GODEXTREME Apr 13 '26
As a goju-ryu practitioner, when we do fight classes, the first thing we do is high our guards.
We will not spar to brake legs, arms and necks just to show the real karate.
The kata's looks just dancing on other eyes.
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u/rnells Kyokushin Apr 13 '26
Style/system is just the method that teaches people to do a thing.
If someone learned to do a thing from a guy who called it Karate it's Karate, same for Muay Thai, whatever.
People who are say, 2-5 years into an art tend to not understand this (whether they are doing Karate or Muay Thai).
I do question though, whether the specific skills people are calling out are things you learned in Karate or in your other studies. If you yourself learned them from a different system it's not unreasonable for people to be pointing that out.
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u/CS_70 Apr 13 '26
Well yes and no. I mean, what makes karate "karate"?
These days, as you say, pretty much anything can be called "karate" - the only truly distinguishable things are the kata, that are completely detached from the kind of sportive combat you describe. Katas are not unique as you find them in Chinese martial arts but in Western circles, they are the distinguishing feature of karate... and they are never ever used or approached in fighting.
That's the main issue your friends are hinting at - probably without being able to articulate it.
And the reason is very simple. Karate has, classically, nothing to do with keeping our arm high, slipping or kicking legs. Or even square stances!
It's a grappling art. The katas are showing you grappling idea. There's nothing to slip for the same reason you don't slip in a clinch in boxing - you're holding the guy. There's nothing to guard because you're so near that he can't punch you (and at best you elbow him). Similar with kicks, the only kick that make sense is a knee in the belly which, if doesnt work, has a chance to reach the groin. And so on. What you want to do in karate is grab the person arm/forearm/wrist and twist and control or break, stuff like that.
All stances, movements, positions in kata (from chikati-mani, "imitation of martial movement", later kara-te, "chinese hand") come alive when you being to understand the fighting distance has nothing to do with the one you're using, but it's literally hands on each other. Actually the premier approach of karate is "sticky hands", you want to keep always your hands on the opponent because you can feel what he's gonna do long before you can see it.
So your friends are a bit right. What you're doing is the labeling as "karate" of something completely different, inspired indeed from other types of combat sports, such has boxing etc.
They are also wrong because millions of people nowadays call karate the same thing you call karate, even though no karate master of old would remotely recognize it as such.
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u/DryHistorian4660 Apr 14 '26
Sounds like whining. First off, the human body comes with a certain number of weapons that can be employed in a number of ways. Second, how one chooses to employ them, and what they choose to call it, is entirely their own business.
It's not the name, it is the results.
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u/Defiant-Way-5762 Apr 14 '26 edited Apr 14 '26
There is no argument really. These comments are made by people with gate keeper mentality. Every martial art or combat sport that utilizes striking all have absolute philosophical commonalities. 1. Identify an open target area and strike it. 2. Do one's best to not allow one's own targets to become vulnerable.
The remaining debate is just an academic prattle session.
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u/Flo-w- Apr 14 '26
I guess I’m probably oversimplifying, but I think karate, just like many other traditional martial arts, kung fu, taekwondo, whatever it may be is simply a way of training the muscles of the body that are usually used in a fight along with all the other stuff like timing and distance. Same could probably be set of most martial arts. That’s why they’re called ‘arts.’ So if you get into a fight, or a sparring contest or whatever you’re still using, what you have been training in karate to do. It makes me think of someone finding a ‘jogger’ and challenging them to race 100 m. Then getting mad at them for sprinting the hundred meters because they’re a ‘jogger.’ Again I know this is an oversimplification, but in my opinion, it sounds like most people are making it too complicated anyway. But what do I know? 🥳
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u/TheOneThatObserves Apr 15 '26
Every martial art climbs the same mountain. They just take different roads. The goal is the same summit, and the closer you get to it, the more similar everything starts to look.
I do muay thai btw. Karate works just fine in the ring, from my point of view, as long as you’re training for fighting and not showmanship
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u/sidmanazebo Apr 15 '26
The only system that utilizes a high guard and slips is kyokushin which is a literal Rip off of Muay Thai.
Traditional karate is very distinct and of course you have kicks and punches like any other MA but it depends how you are executing them , ie are you chambering your side kick or do you just let it whip like Muay Thai .
Also if you do punching combinations like a jab, straight,left hook like a boxer, that is not really something being taught in traditional karate .
So I think deep down you must know how much karate you are using vs other styles.
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u/Laszlopowerhouse Apr 18 '26
They’re just trying to box in karate into a neatly packaged and compartmentalisable ”thing” so they can rank it against their own training, and therefore justify to themselves why they train it (and feel good that they are training something better than the karate guys are, and are therefore a better person/fighter than them).
It’s just naivety to be honest. But that’s the way most of us are, especially when we’re younger.
But yeah, karate encapsulates all of these aspects of modern day fighting. The main difference is the focus of the training sessions. In the end combat sports are just that, combat focused sports, and so they train with the goal of competition in mind. Lots and lots of free practice to develop the right strategies and reflexes for winning a bout. But then also all the draw backs that that comes with. Boxing gloves (offer way more defensive real estate than bare hands), rulesets which limit the scope of what‘s being practiced (no throws in boxing for example), and lots and lots of physical conditioning (which may not be compatible with peoples training goals).
Karate is more a complete system with a larger focus on martial arts more broadly, Budo if you will. For most of us competing isn’t even a focus at all, and self-defence is also often just a distant motivation. We’re mostly just hobbyests enjoying learning more about the art itself. For me I just love learning more about martial arts and I love diversity in techniques and training modalities. So for me our karate clubs offers that. Sometimes we are doing kumite, sometimes ne waza, sometimes we’re focusing on kata, sometimes the more subtle aspects of body control and power generation. That’s what I get out of karate that all my years of boxing and kickboxing never gave me.
So different strokes for different folks.
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u/leothestryker May 11 '26
This has happened to me loads of times until recently. It took a while for my gym to first, recognize some of the differences so they can tell when I’m doing a karate vs Muay Thai technique, and to start giving it credit. I feel you man it sucks
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u/Adventurous-Madame-3 13d ago
Karate is a performative martial art. It's applications don't compare to other martial arts
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u/Pitiful-Spite-6954 10d ago
Yeah I've been military and site security for years and have had some incidents, plain old karate worked just fine.
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u/Diabolical_potplant Shotokan Apr 12 '26
I think what they mean is, well you're not using any of the techniques done in any kata when you're doing that, also yeah, if you're training under a rule system based around kicking and lunching, it's going to look like all the other styles based around that to some degree.
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u/rewsay05 Shinkyokushin Apr 12 '26
What always fucks you guys up is when people say "karate", they are 99% talking about traditional karate like Shotokan, GojuRyu, Wade Ryu and various other Okinawan styles. They almost never referring to full contact karate like Kyokushin, Kudo or Ashihara and you know why. We dont have to learn some esoteric techniques to prove we know about to fight. We learn that from our regular classes and even if a person never attends our classes, they can see the effects of it in various MMA events and the like.
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u/frnzprf Apr 12 '26
Yes, I've ran into this.
I've read the guys from Karate Culture were for example criticized for claiming the laurels of other martial arts for Karate. (Is that how you use that figure of speech?)
It's really difficult to say what defines Karate. It's more of a label with many different associated practices with historical connection.
Many Karateka wouldn't fare well in a full contact or self-defense situation. There is a systematic problem and it's fair to criticize that. Maybe that problem is too little pressure testing, too much punching in the air and being judged by appearance. Also, many kids who train two years and then stop.
But when Karateka earnestly focus on competition or self-defense, they can be good at it and there always were those Karateka, so it should count as true Karate.
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u/FleshUponGear Apr 12 '26
There are karate-specific technique that changed the world of martial arts. The success of Soviet-era boxing specifically is based on karate technique. Kickboxing fundamentally changed Muay Thai forever.
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Apr 12 '26
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u/Aware_Step_6132 Apr 18 '26
Originally, karate was a daily practice of comprehensive self-defense, so it included kata practice with steps, traps, and throws, as well as punching and kicking training and weapon techniques. However, outside of truly traditional schools, weapon techniques are often omitted, leaving only kata and punching and kicking. Furthermore, as it spread throughout the world, a style of jumping with both feet became widespread to conform to the rules of kumite (sparring), and it seems to have followed a rather unusual path where kata, the core of the technical system, is being forgotten.
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u/Em1Fa5 Apr 13 '26
Martial Arts have been overrun with people who would never be allowed to train in the 80's or 90's. These people aren't Martial Artists. Just people who have been taught to throw kicks, punches, and some grappling.
Iran bout it bout it. These people in 3 years won't know who, what, where as they struggle to suture never ending continuous mental breaks.
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u/blindside1 Kenpo, Kali, and coming back to Goju. Apr 13 '26
What do you mean "they would never be allowed to train in the 80s?" You think karate studios were turning away people because they were opinionated?
If you have been in martial arts for any period of time you know it tends to attract um, oddball personalities.
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u/Em1Fa5 Apr 18 '26
No. Everyone is welcome to come see if the school is a good fit for them. If...and that's a big if...if the student displays a lack of morals, ethics, overall...just a sh*tty attitude or willingness to listen to how the head instructor(s) teach(es)...the student would NOT be allowed to train and learn how to weaponize their words, demeanor, and I guess...hands and feet.
...EVERYONE is allowed to train Kenpo Karate...ask college graduate IN accounting about the college glory days...go on...EVERYONE is accessible ON thee internet...NOTHING is stopping YOU from asking COLLEGE GRADUATE 🎓 IN accounting, Chuck Liddell, about the glory days IN college, sir/ma'am.
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u/confanity Shotokan Apr 12 '26
It's just straight-up a No True Scotsman fallacy. I guess I can suggest asking them how they know what does and does not count as karate unless they've personally mastered all major styles, or pointing out that technique X can exist within multiple martial arts -- they wouldn't say that only taekwondo has side kicks, right? If both taekwondo and karate can have side kicks, why can't both karate and [style] have [other move] as well?
That said, using logic at someone who has already demonstrated that they're being unreasonable is often limited in its effectiveness. There comes a point where, as long as they're not actively causing harm, you just kind of have to shrug and let people be wrong.