r/hardware • u/sr_local • 19h ago
News Intel reportedly raises Panther Lake prices by up to 20%, Qualcomm follows with 10% hike, AMD next
https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-panther-lake-cpu-prices-reportedly-rise-by-up-to-20-other-generations-also-affected138
u/putrasherni 19h ago
because why should gpu manufactureres have all the fun ( and money ? )
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u/Stennan 19h ago
Because they are using the same resources, thus if AI bids up the prices for GPUs, if CPU buyers want to keep the CPU production up, they need to pay more to not lose priority.
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u/dingo_xd 15h ago
Doesn't intel produce most of their CPUs in house?
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u/wtallis 15h ago
Panther Lake is still a mix of Intel and TSMC silicon, with TSMC used for the IO chiplets and the larger GPU chiplet while Intel makes the CPU chiplets, the smaller GPU chiplet, and the interposer.
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u/IAmYourFath 12h ago
Wait so they make their own cpu chiplets? Pog. If this AI shit keeps going and Intel can completely abandon TSMC they can get a big advnatage over amd
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u/kenyard 8h ago
They have very little capacity yet but finally have ~2nm process (1.8nm even i think it is) working yeah. Idk what the yields are tho.
tsmc will still be ahead of them with 1.6nm tech I believe it is.
But you are right if they could cut out tsmc they could undercut amd which would in theory shift the CPU market back to intel. In theory.
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u/KARMAAACS 15h ago edited 13h ago
Not always anymore, they use TSMC since their process yields are behind the competition and also their nodes fell behind performance wise. What Intel has an small advantage in is packaging and possibly in density if they could get their yields in a reasonable position. At least most of
Panther Lake and(ty for the correction /u/tacticalangus) Arrow Lake use TSMC, as well as IIRC Lunar Lake. Some parts of the overall package are still Intel like NPU or whatever I think, or SoC die, but the CPU core die themselves are TSMC.13
u/tacticalangus 13h ago
This is incorrect. Most of PTL silicon is Intel by area even in the case of the 12 Xe variants and the lower SKUs use even more Intel silicon because they use Intel 3 iGPUs.
Arguably the most important die on PTL is made by Intel. The compute die which contains the CPU cores is made on Intel 18A.
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u/KARMAAACS 13h ago
This is incorrect. Most of PTL silicon is Intel by area even in the case of the 12 Xe variants and the lower SKUs use even more Intel silicon because they use Intel 3 iGPUs.
Yes thank you for the correction on Panther Lake. You're right the CPU die is Intel 18A, but the high end GPU and I/O die are TSMC. But Arrow Lake is all TSMC as is Lunar Lake, except for the base tiles.
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u/my_wing 9h ago
You are dreaming, Look at Panther Lake tear down Vs Apple A20 tear down (video) from Semi Analyst
18A is Performance (high clock), Power (BSPD), Area (5T HP vs 6/7T HP) better than N2/N2P
In detail
18A is 4 GAA stacks vs N2 3 GAA stacks
Leads to
18A HP is a 5 Tracks vs N2 (est) 6-7 Tracks i.e. more density
Better frequency (Clock speed)18A is BSPD Vs N2 FSPD
Look at the Panther Lake Tear Down, 18A HP in actual pitch measurement is smaller then N3E HD, and you know that HP Vs HD is 15-20% density different, so even N2 is 10-15% more density then N3E, intel 18A HP vs N2 HP there is still 5% density improvement than N2.
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u/KARMAAACS 9h ago
Slow down and explain what you mean a little better. Hard to understand if you're saying Intel is behind in density or ahead.
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u/my_wing 7h ago edited 7h ago
https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/intel-panther-lake-teardown
Look at the table
Representative-cell density and input sensitivity. Source: SemiAnalysisLook at the tear down measured density not PDK density (meaningless)
Look at 18A HP (5T) and N3E HD (7T), T is track (2-2) that is HD (3-3) that is HP (2-2 = 2nmos 2pmos)
As compare to N2 Apple M6, Intel clock a higher frequency
So a 5T 18A is an HP standard cell for sure.
Look at density 169.9 (18A HP) Vs 168.7 (N3E HD)
assume there is 15-20% density advantage (HD vs HP)Even N2 is 15-20% density advantage over N3E.
The conclusion is 18A (HP) is more density than N2/N2P (HP), since Intel always used HP as that is their CPU/Logic.
In another word, Since 18A HP is same density to N3E HD, when compare to density improvement HP Vs HD and N2 Vs N3E, they should be at least similar if not more favour towards Intel, therefore 18A HP is more density than N2/N2P
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u/KARMAAACS 7h ago
I genuinely appreciate you making it more clear what you were saying, you gave more than what I was looking for, so thank you.
So what exactly am I "dreaming" about? If anything you should agree with what I said above, specifically:
What Intel has an small advantage in is packaging and possibly in density if they could get their yields in a reasonable position.
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u/Willinton06 16h ago
Good ol capitalism, everyone now pays way more for the same amount of stuff
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u/Stennan 16h ago
The thing is that people will stop buying at stupid high prices = less demand = less pressure to maintain high prices.
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u/Willinton06 15h ago
Yeah, the same amount of people will get the same amount of product, but everyone spent a bunch more money, gdp goes up! Can we be any less efficient?
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u/EvenBroaderBand 16h ago
Capitalism is just the private ownership of assets instead of a lord or kind owning them all.
This is market economics not capitalism. Markets existed before capitalism was discovered by scientists at the dawn of the renaisance, markets predate money.
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u/Willinton06 16h ago
Ok, good ol market economics not capitalism, we pay more for the same amount of stuff, happy?
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u/robotojojo 14h ago
Yes, if demand rises and production can’t keep up, the same thing costs more until demand falls off, production speeds up, or buyers are unwilling to pay more.
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u/Willinton06 14h ago
That sounds pretty stupid, which is what I'm complaining about, market economics are immensely inefficient and straight up dumb in many cases
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u/jigsaw1024 14h ago
Market economics are highly efficient, and solve supply imbalances relatively quickly.
What market economics don't do is solve supply imbalances in an equitable manner, which can be the bigger problem.
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u/Willinton06 13h ago
Market economics extremely inefficient and solve supply imbalances after they already took place, do you see companies like Walmart, who move more money than most countries, using internal markets? What about Amazon? Do they wait until demand rises to move product from one warehouse to another? Of course not, that would be ridiculous
I truly don’t understand how people think a reactionary system could ever be more efficient than a logical system where we prepare and allocate resources based on priority, I understand that before the internet this was not possible, but today it’s borderline psychotic not to try and plan things years ahead
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u/supeinjin_desu 11h ago
Internally, big companies use market-like accounting to allocate scarce resources.
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u/SethDusek5 11h ago
I truly don’t understand how people think a reactionary system could ever be more efficient than a logical system where we prepare and allocate resources based on priority, I understand that before the internet this was not possible, but today it’s borderline psychotic not to try and plan things years ahead
You can make a lot of money trading commodities if you know what'll increase in demand in the future. Let me know how efficiently you can do this
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u/127-0-0-1_1 9h ago
Yes, because that means that there's more profit in manufacturing the scarce product, which means that production will increase as market participants naturally want to make more money.
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u/Willinton06 9h ago
In a planned economy we could just produce more without increasing the price, no need to wait for “naturally”
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u/127-0-0-1_1 9h ago
The issue is twofold:
1) is that it's practically impossible for human planners to account for all the variables of an economy with hundreds of millions of people. Hence why all planned economies have failed. They all end up with major shortages, that lead to... black markets. It all goes back to markets.
2) it lacks triaging. Price is triaging. For example, the price of hand sanitizer went up during COVID. That's good, though, it's better than a shortage. A hospital REALLY needs hand sanitizer. Someone with immune deficincies really needs hand sanitizer. A healthy individual does not. If we just had shortages, and hand sanitizer was randomly distributed, then that's ultimately worse than a world where young healthy people baulk at the price of hand sanitizer and hospitals fork over the extra cost. Price also works to triage supply where it's most needed.
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u/Willinton06 8h ago
Not only is it possible it actually is quite simple, Amazon does it, Walmart does it, they have hundreds of millions of customers, and they are able to predict their needs fairly easily, we have all the data in the world, people complain about Facebook being able to pretty much read your mind to display an ad, same with Google, you really think we can’t figure out what Walmart already figured out ages ago?
We don’t need triaging, we just need to measure the amount of energy it takes to produce stuff, and use that as a direct measure for what it should be priced at, does something require very little energy to produce? Make it cheap, does something require tons of energy to produce? Make it expensive, you add on top of that the energy that it takes to deliver it to you, and you have a way more effective value measuring tool
In the current system all companies are measuring up, not down, they want to see how much they can charge you, they’re optimizing for maximum extraction, not maximum efficiency, so you get tons of cheap shit at high prices, until someone decides to bring it and sell it for less, it’s ridiculous
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u/127-0-0-1_1 8h ago
It’s definitely not simple. You can’t compare a company’s supply chain with an entire economy. Moreover, it kinda proves the point: these companies fail all the time at managing just their own supply chains, as limited in scope as that is, when they have elasticity by working in a market economy.
What happens when Amazon is missing XYZ widget for their fire devices? They pay extra money to get the components faster. That’s the market in action! It’s fallacious to think that manufacturers nail the exact amount of every component they need. They only manage to produce products on time because of the market. Because you can do things like make express orders when you fuck up, or sell excess components when you overbuy.
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u/Bibbity_Boppity_BOOO 14h ago
are you making the criticism that we would be better off living in trees dying of treatable disease.
you are on r/hardware where capitalism is the reason behind... the hardware being good
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u/Willinton06 13h ago
We’ve gotten here despite capitalism not because of it, the space race which ignited the current tech wave was started by a bunch of communists in a soon to be failed state, the cheap products you enjoy today are made in the communist country, not the in the capitalist one
Would you say that we made all our pre capitalism progress because of monarchies? Cause it was monarchies all the way down back then, so you owe the foundations of math and physics to monarchies following your logic
And here in the US plenty of people die from treatable diseases, cause they can’t afford to go see the doctor, but worry not, socialized medicine is coming to save you soon enough, as always
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u/Bibbity_Boppity_BOOO 13h ago
"the cheap products you enjoy today are made in the communist country, not the in the capitalist one"
china is socialist, but whatever. also that is true because of neoliberal capitalist economics, which created globalization, which is singlehandedly the most important economic development for alleviating poverty over the last century."Would you say that we made all our pre capitalism progress because of monarchies?"
almost no progress was made under fuedalism. fuedalism was around for millennia, and on a per year basis, did next to nothing.
"And here in the US plenty of people die from treatable diseases, cause they can’t afford to go see the doctor, but worry not, socialized medicine is coming to save you soon enough, as always"
socialized medicine at the point of the consumer is workable. but not at the health tech sector. you have still are unable to grasp that socialism/communism is unable to drive technology. this is because socialism does no work in markets that need competition to be useful. socialism and technological progress are incompatible. at best it will copy the R&D of capitalist structure and concentrate on manufacturing, because socialist countries are often low income. Note that none of this is marxist derived. the idea that socialized healthcare works is all standard neoliberal economics. And i use the term socialism loosely, and not in the strict ideological sense.
marx was a low iq imbecile that tricked a lot of dummies.
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u/Willinton06 13h ago
We can call China socialist if that works for you, I honestly don't care about the label, I just care about the mechanics, do whatever, the neo liberal capitalist economics did not create global trade, that has been around since pre colonial times, it's jus that the "world" was a bit smaller then, they made the WTO which actually excluded other countries, which is why china had to join, can't join something you're already part of
So "almost no progress", but what about that little bit of progress? Is it due to monarchies?
And I don't know if you're aware but literally all medical progress is subsidized, aka, socialized, and heavily so, all universities who train scientists that go and work at corporations, all that is socialized, unless you mean to tell me that corporations build their own universities and such, the system is already socialized except for certain key parts, which are the ones that we want to change
Pretty much every single piece of tech you own, you owe to state funding, the microchip that intel claims they invented was the sequel to the more advanced version the US military developed, the internet was created by the US military, the computer by the British gov, the cables that connect the internet across countries? Mostly government, what about AT&T and their telephone towers? They became the company with the most debt in the world for a second to build those towers, and guess who loaned them the money? What about the financial sector that has crashed like 10 times? Socialized the bailouts
I honestly debate this for fun cause it's very clear that capitalism is only here cause we socialized everything that it would destroy if left alone
But I want to be very clear, tech development is slower under capitalism, in the history of the US, all important tech is developed by state funded institutions, corporations only take that and make it into products, but everything is developed by the state funded universities and labs
Capitalism blocks others from trying to develop certain types of tech cause it wouldn't be immediately profitable, or because they fear lawfare from the existing institutions
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u/LickMyKnee 18h ago
My 5700X3D is still going to be running in the 2030’s with the way things are going.
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u/HailCithir 18h ago
Same bought a 7900xtx and 5700x3d a year ago for a decent price and I regret not going am5 when prices were better. Guess I'll stay on am4 a couple years more then.
Edit: Spelling
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u/Framed-Photo 14h ago
I ended up with a 5700X3D after seeing how poor the 9000 series chips were doing around launch. Even though 9000X3D did beat my expectations, at the time it would have been like 3-4x the cost of my 5700X3D upgrade to go with a 9800X3D, which would have been kinda dumb to go for when the 5700X3D was still so good.
Had I known ram prices were going to jump THIS much, I might have considered it more lol.
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u/IAmYourFath 12h ago
Don't regret it, u didn't have a crystal ball. That's like saying u regret not buying bitcoin, or u regret not gambling on red on the roulette on the casino.
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u/RHINO_Mk_II 13h ago
I'm on roughly the same build with the expectation I would upgrade sometime this year but the numbers no longer make any sense at all. Probably going to ride it out for 2 more years assuming no early failures.
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u/MMORPGDev 18h ago
As it should.
You can use the same CPU for 10+ years really, there are people gaming on X99 Xeons right now.
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u/goldcakes 17h ago
You can, and there's nothing wrong with it, but it's a really sad state of affairs. It should be a conscious choice to use the same CPU for a decade+; not something forced due to surging component prices.
Beyond CPU performance, older CPUs/chipsets also miss out on new platform capabilities; whether that's more/better IO, USB X.X, etc.
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u/SirMaster 16h ago
It's a happy state of affairs that stuff that old can still run modern software though and not be obsolete. It didn't used to be that way... CPUs and GPUs used to become obsolete so much faster. You used to need a new GPU like every 2 years just to keep up with the DirectX and shader model versions otherwise the new games would literally not be compatible at all.
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u/1080Pizza 10h ago
I used my i5 4670k for 10 years before upgrading! Nice upgrade from DDR3 to DDR5 RAM at a good time too.
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u/kwirky88 17h ago
Still rocking a 5600X. I’m treating it like a Honda civic that I’m expecting 300k km mileage out of.
Unrelated, but I bought a used 3090 when the 5090 launched and now it’s worth double what I paid. I’m tempted to cash out.
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u/ChrisMartins001 16h ago
Same. I bought it right at the start of lockdown and have never felt the need to upgrade. It does exactly what I need it to do. Are there better out there? Yes, but does it make sense financially? No.
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u/RealPjotr 19h ago
There is simply not enough chip supply by far in the world right now, so everything will go up in price.
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u/Stennan 19h ago
Also 25% Helium needed for lithography came via the hormuz strait. It might be less explosive, but those pressurized ships also don't do well if hit by an Iranian drone.
So, since the optimized supply chains are out of whack, the extra AI demand is compounded by the energy/resource scarcity.
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u/wintrmt3 16h ago
Lithography uses only a small amount of Helium and it's a very high margin industry right now, I would worry more about being able to get an MRI.
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u/KARMAAACS 15h ago
Is your MRI concern because of rare earths?
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u/wintrmt3 14h ago
They need Helium to cool them.
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u/KARMAAACS 14h ago
Oh I see, ty I didn't know that, but it makes sense.
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u/sk1939 10h ago
It’s also a non-renewable resource. Once the known deposits are done, there is no more helium.
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u/ComplexEntertainer13 6h ago edited 6h ago
Actually helium IS renewable, but on geological time scales.
Essentially almost all helium from the forming of the planet is long gone into space. It's a noble gas and does not readily react with other elements which means it remains a gas. And Earth does not have enough gravity to stop it from eventually escaping. That is btw the threshold for why giant planets become gas giants, they can keep all their light gasses like helium and unbound hydrogen that rocky planets loses over time.
What we have now is mainly from radioactive decay over millions and billions of years that is slowly moving from the inner parts of the planet. Which then gets temporarily trapped in gas deposits and other kinds of "traps" in the crust.
And also we are not really running out of helium. What we are running out of is cheap helium. There are a lot of helium in lower grade gas deposits that we just vent away when extracting natural gas. It's simply not cost effective to extract it.
It's the same as with oil, we will never actually run out. Because we will run into economics of extraction long before that.
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u/foolish_shrimp 15h ago
There actually is, a recent hack that exposed nvidia GPU telemetry showed not even 50% utilisation of their highest end, most in demand cards. The entire thing is just fraud and circular financing, people aren't utilising all of the compute even when it's so heavily subsidised. Like many things, the distribution is all messed up, there isn't actually a shortage.
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u/RealPjotr 13h ago
Use of the product doesn't reflect the demand to actually buy them. The buying demand is so high that companies even buy without being able to install and run them yet. The buying demand is far above production.
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u/imaginary_num6er 17h ago
Only a matter of time before digital watches, thermometers, scales, etc. all go up in price or are no longer available for purchase
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u/FrogNoPants 15h ago
Didn't they just do that a few months ago?
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u/Aw3som3Guy 12h ago
I think a few months ago was the news that they were raising the prices of the older 7nm Raptor Lake parts.
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u/xNaquada 10h ago
My 9800X3D will last 10 years. It's already approaching 2 years into that journey this holiday season.
It will last through the next console generation barring a very large surprise like a 12C/24T console cpu.
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u/thegenregeek 7h ago
During the last 10 years I've been on a buying spree of sorts, picking up a number of cheap/affordable AM4 machines (when prices were good). Some of which have parts (x370 boards, cases and RAM) from 2017-2018 now running Ryzen 5000 series that I fully expect will be fine for things the next 5-6 years. (They have ample memory, decent enough GPU options for PCIe 3.0 x16 and are fine for 1080p gaming or 1440p game...depending on title.)
Hell my fastest desktop is a (launch day) 7950x from 2022 (that replaced a 5950x I still keep around) and it's an open question whether I look to upgrade/replace it before 2030. Or just push out past that (I might go with a Zen 6 or Zen 7 upgrade, if the price is right. But odds are I'm simply waiting for Zen 8 and AM6 before picking up older stock Zen 6/7 at this point)
What of course helps is that I don't care about 4k120f+. (That and using hardware for 3d animation and game dev)
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u/xNaquada 7h ago
AM4 has plenty of legs - even outside of gaming!
My server is a AMD5900x+RTX2070, and does everything I can think of, with the sole exception of AV1 hardware decode. I can certainly manage around it as AV1 use is still rare, but it is in my mind if I can snag a cheap used RTX 5050 someone wants to dump somewhere down the line).
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u/thegenregeek 7h ago edited 6h ago
Certainly true.
I would add that I have spare hardware shifted to 3d animation rendering at this point. For example one machine is a 5950x +128GB RAM + 2x 3090 + 1x 5070 Ti + 1x 5060 Ti that handles most render tasks in Blender (despite my 7950x having a 5090). Or is a NAS file server (5700G + 32GB RAM) I upgrade a couple years ago and will easily run for 10+ years at this point, hardware permitting.
The rest of my AM4 hardware was intended for VR demos (pre COVID). Or left over parts from unnecessary upgrading at the time. (Obviously I cured of the silliness at this point.)
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u/MrGunny94 11h ago
For consumers I suppose most companies will switch to Intel and Samsung.. Leaving TSM for bleeding edge nodes and 2nd gen things..
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u/UnkeptSpoon5 8h ago
I thought maybe I would pick up an x3d processor someday to replace my 7600x... looks like we're going to be locked in together for the long haul.
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u/InflammableAccount 6h ago
What does AMD have to hike? Their mobile segment is woefully uncompetitive outside of Gorgon Halo.
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u/writetowinwin 3h ago
Have a 7950X and 4080 super I bought years ago to finally replace a laptop with a 12xxxK series (cant even remember) and 3070ti. Still does more than enough today.
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u/GestureArtist 18h ago
Computers are for billionaires
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u/mlecz 14h ago
Just wait, when ai bubble pops, pc will be back for the masses
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u/itsaride 10h ago
Prices only come down when there's oversupply. Oversupply doesn't happen with the current players.
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u/GestureArtist 13h ago
It’s not going to. AI is important and the richest most powerful people want it to control the world. That bubble ain’t popping but the middle class will collapse
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u/2000KitKat 17h ago
Glad I bought my 5800x3d last month. It solved most all of my problems while preventing me from buying a new 500$ ram kit and a motherboard
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u/harry_lostone 17h ago
I wonder if I should i pull the trigger and upgrade my r5 7600 for r7 9700x at the acceptable price of 230euro, while reselling the old one for idk 90... I strongly believe that once I upgrade that I'll be good for probably a decade lol
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u/koolaidismything 17h ago
Went to get an Amazon 4k Max for my uncles garage TV cause it has tri band 6e on it.
Got one for my grandma a month ago for $50
Now all of a sudden they are $90!
Made me look fuckin stupid when my aunt was like why would you suggest a hundred dollar item??
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u/koolaidismything 15h ago
They didn’t need it on Prime day. The other one worked til the TV had to get moved to another room. I deduced buying a fire stick with 6e since their new Xfinity router is 6e was cheapest option. I was wrong.
And it’s reasonable to not expect a staple item in Amazons lineup to jump $40 overnight.
I dunno, whole thing is strange.
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u/MMORPGDev 18h ago
Once AI gets more optimized to run on CPU (NPU) the prices will skyrocket and stock will be low. Motherboard prices will go up as well.
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u/EdgiiLord 15h ago
The local applications of NPUs in the CPUs have nothing to do with the high processing power needed for training for special ASICs that are actually used in datacenters.
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u/Hour_Firefighter_707 19h ago
Great. They weren’t keenly priced before anyways, what will a thin and light cost now?