I saw your tags and dms about reflective lane markings and I wanted to do a post instead of responding to individuals because it’s one of our most frequently asked questions. Shoutout to u/According-History117u/Internet_Jadedu/Perdendosi and anyone else who tagged me.
Warning: this is gonna be a long ELI5 sort of post.
TL;DR: Lane markings boil down to balancing cost, maintenance, durability and effectiveness in all conditions.
Yes, we use reflective paint and have for a long time. Gonna get into the nitty gritty on this one since it’s brought up a lot.
There’s two types of reflective stuff we use:
Paint with tiny glass beads that reflect light back
Reflective tape
Why the paint is hard to see (especially in rain): Partly just physics, ngl. When those glass beads get covered in water, you get "specular reflection". Basically the water reflects light up instead of back toward you like it's supposed to. The other issue is it wears off fast. We try to reapply often but between the heat, snow, salt, and ice here, it just doesn't last. Utah can be brutal on this stuff.
Onto the tape: Because of the paint's limitations, we've switched to reflective tape wherever we can. "Tiger tail" tape combines retroreflective glass beads in white stripes with black lines for higher contrast. So you get improved visibility at night and when it's wet, without ruining visibility in bright sun. It's not just about rain. It has to work in every condition, which makes finding a "perfect" fix way harder than it sounds. Bonus: these stripes are recessed into the road, so it lasts way longer than paint or surface-mounted tape.
FAQ time, since y'all always ask:
"Why not raised reflectors like other states?" — Snowplows destroy them. Would need constant maintenance, not really viable here.
"What about glow-in-the-dark paint?" — Doesn't hold up to weather either. Doesn't last. And isn’t as bright as you think it should be.
"Why don't you just ask other states what they do?" — We do, genuinely. We meet with other DOTs regularly to talk best practices. This is an issue basically every snow state struggles with. Check their social media, same complaints everywhere. But yeah, we know we can do better, and we're expanding the tiger tail tape as much as possible.
This is the move. It helps with visibility so much. The new recessed tiger striping that Utah is doing is better than it was before, but in rainy conditions I still can only see the lines like 10 feet in front of me. They help, but it's still terrifying to drive in the rain here. I'm sure UDOT has a reason they haven't done recessed reflectors though, but I hope it's not just for cost reasons
It is cost, recessed reflectors are a lot more costly. You have the initial installation cost, they still damage snow plows (repair costs), replacement of reflectors, cleaning the holes of debris.
UDOT is already underfunded. Construction costs is outpacing tax revenue by a wide margin. Just to keep the status quo, the Utah gas tax needs to double.
I agree that they are underfunded, but UDOT is actually one of the better funded departments of transportation in the US. And I think it shows. Overall I'm very pleased with the conditions of the roads and frontrunner. UDOT seems to spend their money well and keep our infrastructure maintained. I like how they handle construction, bridge repair, filling in potholes, etc. it seems so silly but my only real complaint is the road lines that disappear with any semblance of moisture lol
It does not dmg plows when done correctly and how much money have we already wasted on all the other methods? It’s baffling also how Utahns really just accept these things as reality when other places do it just fine but somehow we don’t.
Grew up in Utah. Have lived in Colorado for a year. Can confirm the new striping on I15 is better than what Colorado has. Cant see shit on i25 or i70 in the rain just have to judge by how far you are from the median/barrier.
That a big part of the process with tiger tape lane stripes. It depends on the material of the road surface if that's the right technique. You can see it a bit more up close in the IG post linked above.
We've given them a fair shot. They were tested over 4 years on I-15 and US-89 (aka State St. in some places). They weren't worth the maintenance and replacement headaches that came along with them. They also were a problem for snowplows, I'd have to reach out to those crews to get an exact answer as to why.. but I'm guessing it damaged the blades.
The grooves you need to make to recess the reflectors do damage. Is it still Colorado you have in mind when you're picturing states with heavier snowfall that use the reflectors?
No, NJ/NY is where I lived and they were used. As well as Maryland. The point is states make it work, Utah just apparently can’t make it work like those other states somehow.
You can post all the links you want that your bosses or AI is funneling you to say “other states struggle with this too” and while that may be true their current tactic is a VAST improvement over the nonsensical stuff we have tried that clearly is not working.
My issue isn’t as much with the much-improved striping, but it’s with the extra “lines” that are made when old stripes from construction or lane shifts are removed.
The new recessed lines are decent, but when it rains and you can’t see the reflective tape everything turns into a hodge podge of new lines, old lines, tar strips, and tire lines through the water.
NH person here, 9 years in Utah and my house is still there, so I'll be back. It's Grey and rainy here today. I drove from NH to Waltham MA and could see the lines the whole way in the misty fog. While the intern is certainly doing the job of getting more messaging out and expounding on their challenges, the proof of visibility is in the pudding. Utah needs better line visibility across the state.
I took this from above the highway in my office with ni zoom. You can see the lines clearly. UDOT intern we appreciate you interacting but UDOT needs to understand the concerns when other states are able to effectively mitigate the problem
No shade, just info for you and other former Mainers.
Here's an article from 2024 and another from 2025 each from different news outlets.
TBH, Maine DOT seems to have similar experiences to us.
It seems like some of these states are re-painting every year, are our interstates painted every year? They also use different amounts of beads based on the road type, what do we use? I swear I can't think of a single time line visibility has been good here on a rainy day.
It depends on if it's the paint, epoxy, or the tape material, cuz they have different life spans.
We put down fresh paint annually on most routes. Thanks to the recessed grooves for the tape, we're replacing those every 6-9 yrs. Epoxy and thermo plastics get replaced every 3-5 yrs. There's good info on our methodology here.
You can get a better feel for what gets used where on the road here
edit: I almost forgot! I need to ask about amounts of beads, I'll get back on that.
Do you recall the type of paint / glass bead lb per gallon used in the past? Those were shared in those articles and might help compare, but no worries if that’s not available.
I also really appreciate you taking the time to respond to all of us, I know it’s gotta be a lot.
It seems like you've been given a list of excuses by somebody who just doesn't want to advocate for something in the budget. I grew up in New England which has much harsher weather but less UV than Utah. I'm not a road-paintologist, so maybe the UV breaks down the adhesive between the glass reflecting balls.
Why is it that New England states can do road striping SO much better than Utah? What about California in Tahoe/ Mammoth?
No excuses I swear! But I appreciate your understanding of the position folks like me are in.
New England and a whole lot of other place definitely have harsh weather, I never want to experience a Nor'easter in person. We all have really different average snowfalls, average # of drivers on the road, and infrastructure. Utah has a ton of big/wide state roads, drivers, and weather events. All of that adds up.
I strongly recommend checking out the post I linked to about for a more detailed look at other state DOT's lane striping and roads situations.
Ok, then show up with receipts and objective evidence that UDOT half asses road painting compared to New England. It could be an inferior product, it could be the same product but applied less frequently, it could be some kind of salt + UV combo wearing it down faster.
I feel really bad for you. Your superiors gave you a list of "other places" that "have a hard time seeing in the dark" but didn't arm you with actual evidence of why Utah is SO BAD at this. Has been since I moved here in 2011.
I love that you took time to post about this as it’s frequently something I complain about to my friends.
I’m grew up in Missouri, and idk what they are doing different over there, but short of a biblical downpour I feel like their paint shows up really well in rain, where in Utah a moderate storm is really hard to see.
Anyways thanks for your time and good luck with the problem!
Missouri on average gets less snow than we do (per NWS), so that probably effects what materials they get to use. From some reddit and fb posts, it seems like they've still got visibility issues, but the posts I found are older, so benefit of the doubt, maybe they've solved those ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I haven’t lived in lived in Missouri for like a decade so my point of reference is going to be like 2000-2015. What you say about snow could play a part of it. I don’t think all roadways are managed by MODOT so there could be some variance for reports on visibility but anecdotally I always felt like on highways and interstates the visibility was good.
Check out the first of my links in the post above^ you can see we do carve into the road to install lane markings.
Can't do it for all of them, depends on the materials we had to use for the surface of the road and the depth we'd have to go for some reflectors. Can you imagine how pissed people would be if we made tiny potholes on purpose!
Same as I said to someone else, no shade intended, just info for you and any other Jersey transplants. NJ has issues with their lane markings wearing down every 7- 9 months and drivers report a whole lot of confusion related to lane markings for various reasons. No where is perfect.
You can put links up all you want but as someone who lived there for years of their life, it’s not the same and you can see the roads.
For the reflectors you aren’t putting “tiny potholes” in the road and that to me feels like you don’t really understand how that system works. Also the roads back east have way more maintenance anyways because they don’t use concrete and use asphalt which wears down faster.
I know you’re just an intern but showing links to how other states have issues isn’t going to get drivers here off your case that our roads suck when it comes to being able to see them at night.
The fact is whatever you guys are doing now isn’t working. Invest in a system that does work to make things safer for drivers here instead of posting links to support why it’s okay that we continue to do what we do.
There are spots on busy major roadways with near zero line visibility in broad daylight.
Utah and udot need to have better maintenance schedules. I actually think the bare minimum problem isn't paint wear out or the right tech it's the lack of willingness to either fund or hire the crews needed.
"Why not raised reflectors like other states?" — Snowplows destroy them. Would need constant maintenance, not really viable here.
This is incorrect. When reflectors are installed below the height of the road, they don’t get destroyed by snowplows. This is common practice in Northern California, where they receive plenty of snow, often much wetter and heavier than what we typically see in Utah.
There is clearly something wrong with how Utah is approaching this. I’ve driven on brand-new roads with freshly painted lines, and yet visibility is still practically nonexistent. At some point, we need to stop making excuses and start looking at what other areas are doing successfully. If Northern California can manage this in conditions involving heavier, wetter snow, why can’t Utah?
This is what I came to the comments for. We can install tape below grade, but same logic can’t be applied to reflectors? Sure, reflectors are considerably deeper in height than tape, but as you pointed out, other states have figured this out. Why is Utah pretending like we only discovered this problem 3 years ago and don’t know the answer? Start converting to embedded reflectors as roads get re-paved.
I replied with this on another thread a couple of hours before you commented, but didn't want to ignore this thread.
We've given recessed reflectors a fair shot. They were tested over 4 years on I-15 and US-89 (aka State St. in some places). They weren't worth the maintenance and replacement headaches that came along with them. They also were a problem for snowplows, I'd have to reach out to those crews to get an exact answer as to why.. but I'm guessing the deep grooves damaged the blades.
As for u/SearchingForMe76 your question about NorCal figuring this out, I admittedly haven't lived there, what are you picturing as comparable to what the majority of Utah experiences? It looks like most of that region is national forest land to me.
Look at Chico, Paradise, Magalia, and Redding. If the local roadwork were done poorly, I’d be more inclined to blame the installers. But having lived in Northern California, I’ve also seen roadwork done in areas that get plenty of snow.
I’m newer to Salt Lake City, and honestly, I’m appalled by the quality of some of the roadwork here. Fresh patches that are almost worse than the original damage, newly paved roads that aren’t level, and abrupt, blunt transitions where old pavement meets new instead of properly tapering them out.
These aren’t just cosmetic issues. They affect the quality of the drive and, in some cases, safety. I understand that road construction is complicated, but when brand-new work is already rough and uneven, it’s fair to question the standards being used and the quality of the finished product.
I need more information on these tests, kind Intern. When and where? I’ve lived in Salt Lake for over 30 years, with many miles on State throughout SLC valley and into neighboring counties, and trips on I-15 out of state both directions, and am sure I havent experienced the embedded reflectors, but maybe I missed them.
Is there more information about how UDOT determined they weren’t worth the maintenance? Like, I mean a detailed study about the costs, time, and impacts to traffic, etc.
Just look at Europe. Look at Switzerland. Roads are perfectly maintained and lane markers visible. Yes, there are painting crews out constantly. Yes, some cat eyes etc need maintenance every year. But that is the price of having safe roads. Switzerland also gets plenty of snow.
One state not listed on that other thread is AZ. I'm sure it gets overlooked because everybody thinks the whole state is 120 degrees year round when in actuality the state gets a lot of snow in a wet winter. Flagstaff is one of the snowiest cities in the country with averaging over 100 inches each winter. The SLC valley wishes they'd get as much snow as places in AZ. Whatever they do for road striping works in all kinds of weather- rain. & snow. I lived in UT for years, moved to AZ & now back on my 2nd stint living here. The difference is night and day. For one, they don't use road salt like UT does. They use cinders for most of their roads. It's better for the environment. The salt mix they use is very different from the one used here. It's not as harsh as the UT mix but still gets the job done with less harm to the environment. I remember my first winter & monsoon seasons there. I never had any worries about not being able to see the striping. UT could benefit from their expertise.
The tiger tape blends into the pavement and is extremely hard to see in full daylight conditions. The markings look like shadows. If I look in the rear view mirror they are bright. This is frustrating.
Sorry, but this is mostly excuse post. Have you ever been to other states or even countries? Why in other states can I drive in the night and rain and see clearly lines on the road? Because they are paying for quality. Here in Utah you pay the same but you get a cheap version because no one cares. Maintenance costs? We have higher costs than ie Sweden where the lines and reflective parts in the road are designed to survive winter maintenance. Why? My suspicion is that some of the price is being paid under the table. You are right about physics (there are limits what you can do) and you are right about the need to balance between quality an costs, but then you hit the reality where in Utah we pay more for the same than in other states.
Vehicle registration and other car related fees are significantly higher in those states than in Utah. We do not pay the same in Utah, people are paying more in those states. We also do not have higher costs than Sweden, where did you get that idea from?
Recessed reflectors still damage snow plows, and require regular maintenance, that is not free.
If Utah implemented recessed reflectors that means less roads.
Sweden is significantly more expensive. 4x the sales tax. 4x the registration/road use tax (larger vehicles would be even more expensive than just 4x). 5x the gas/VAT tax.
Sweden was used in my example that you can have a solution that will survive heavy winter maintenance. Go to ie MO and you will find a lot of roads that you can drive in the rainy night and see the road. MO is IMHO cheap compared to Utah, so when they can afford it but in Utah someone is telling me that it would cost too much money even if Utah is paying more then I do not know… sorry, I can tell you examples where the road maintenace in Utah sucks, road near the SLC airport was rebuilt and 2 days later it had holes and bumps. It got never fixed. If I would run that projec there would be probably something in the contract about ie 5y warranty that could be actually enforced. But again, in Utah is the law not enforced so who cares about the roads, important is that someone is making profit.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember in the late 80s/early 90s when suddenly the road paint became an issue. I remember it being explained that it was because the EPA banned lead in paint. I just remember before road striping was great, and after, it became terrible. I do think that things have improved since those early days.
My husband and I were just talking about the line stripping on 215 the other day. It was raining and so hard to see the lanes. Thank goodness it was pretty empty when we megerd from legacy to 215 because we could not see what lane we were supposed to be in. It was super sketchy
I will say the tiger stripes are easier to see when it's raining during the day. Significantly better than how it was before. But I still can hardly see the lines when it's raining at night which makes it quite terrifying
I’d like an explanation as to why in broad daylight, particularly in Utah county, I can’t see any white paint in front of me, but it’s clear as day in my mirrors behind me. It doesn’t seem to matter which direction I’m traveling. I don’t think paint gets installed backwards.
It's a combination of 2 things. First, the UV coating on your front windshield vs rear window (and some "self dimming" mirror qualities too) and second, the sun angle essentially blowing out the contrast between the paint and the road surface as you look at different distances down (or behind) the road
Its like nobody from udot even drives on the roads here. The black and white new stripes that udot keeps praising themselves for is an example. Yes they are good in some conditions. But if you are driving in the middle of the day when the sun is out, the stripes are nearly invisible driving south in the afternoon. How do you guys not recognize that and change course?
And the rain... forget about it. You kind of see the stripes if you drive a truck. Driving a car, forget about it.
The state and udot are clueless and at this point, seemingly useless. But dont worry, they'll advocate all day for spending 100s of millions on an additional hov lane that we dont need or want.
Grew up in FL and have traveled all over USA for work and now live in Utah for last 3 years and the road stripping here is one of the worst. I can go 70mph in a real down pour in FL at anytime of the day cuz well FL rains like that and still see the lane I am in fine as I watch the guy going 80 mph in the left lane fly by. Here in utah with this drizzle we call heavy rain I can't see the lane stripes without trying hard.
Street bond thermal plastic/Preformed thermoplastic has been awesome tech lately. Ive been installing this all over the state via crosswalks/logos/bikelanes/handicap signs/etc for a long time now. It can last, if the road is maintained, for a decade +. Even plows can go over it without tearing it up if installed right. It resists wear from traffic, UV fading, and chemical exposure (such as fuel, oil, and deicing salts). Now, it is more costly. But it can be cheaper than redoing lines every single year.
I understand that no solution is perfect for every weather event. That makes sense. If one solution is better for one type but is worse for another why is a hybrid approach not adopted?
Use the stuff that looks good in the rain for half of the dashed line and the stuff that looks good in the sun for the other half. Just split it verically down the middle. This has a trade off of smaller dashed lines but in the sun it doesn't matter as much as it does in the rain. Just an idea using the existing materials
I deal with UDOT on the design end of things. For all the complaints that people have, I have seen how hard they work to try and make things last and to decrease costs. Could things be better? Of course they could. Are they spending time and money to figure out how to make things work better here? Absolutely. I don’t think the pubic knows how forward thinking they actually are.
I don't want to doxx myself but as someone who did a largescale research project on pavement markings in New England a few years ago, I appreciate the complexities of this conversation. 🤓
I also want to come to OP's defense by adding another factor that differentiates Utah from other regions. It's the pavement composition. Utah uses a lot of cement and granite composite in the road surfaces. This contributes to more rapid paint degradation and lack of visible contrast between the color of the pavement and the color of the paint markings. When both the pavement and paint are fresh, they are at maximum contrast. This deteriorates pretty quickly.
It would be unreasonably expensive to use different materials that 1) aren't as locally accessible and 2) don't hold up to the weather challenges of the region.
It is SO dangerous when we have weather here. If Utah is so concerned about limiting fatalities on our roads, they would make it a priority to budget appropriately. I am confident we throw away money in this state on total non-life saving trash projects.
These are the same tired excuses UDOT trots out every year. Tell me, how do Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and Colorado have it figured out?
Just admit it already, that the Church owns the road paint business through a shell company and they'll keep the roads terrible so they can keep making money off it.
Replying to get this post pushed. I'm tired of people complaining about road stripes in Utah, and I'm just like "do you not understand the conditions they're working with?!?" They're not lazy, they're not incompetent, it's just hard to keep things nice when you decide to actually plow and salt your roads when it snows.
Utah isn’t the only state with snow and if you got out of Utah you would understand that states with worse winters and weather can actually see their lines.
I'd need to see actual representative evidence and not personal experience (which can't be representative) proving that a state with worse Winters has objectively better striping on average to truly believe that claim.
I haven't lived in Utah for over a decade. The states that I've lived in during that time made me grateful for how well Utah maintains its roads.
Simply living in another state is not a representative sample of how well that state's roads are maintained. You may only regularly experience the most recently updated road, or the most out of date road. Neither would be representative of how the roads are as a whole in that state.
Thanks for the reminder. I see so many complaints about UDOT broadly and I'm like, Utah doesn't know how good they have it, that I think I was projecting that broad subject into this specific one.
But still, road striping is a part of road maintenance.
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u/sk8erord 20h ago
You could recess the reflectors like some states do. I've seen this in Colorado.