r/SnyderCut • u/DKF4life Do you bleed? • May 22 '26
Discussion Ben Affleck’s Batman is misunderstood.
People reduce the Martha scene in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice to “their moms have the same name,” but that misses the point entirely. Batman doesn’t spare Superman because of the coincidence; he spares him because, for the first time in years, Bruce sees him as a son about to lose his mother rather than an alien threat. It snaps him back to what Batman was always supposed to be about: stopping others from going through the same pain that created him. That’s also why the detail of the Batmobile seemingly losing its machine guns in Suicide Squad actually fits the character arc so well. In BvS, Bruce is at his moral lowest and basically treating Gotham like a warzone, but afterward you can read him as slowly pulling himself back toward restraint and purpose. Batfleck works best as a Batman who is broken, not wrong — just someone remembering what Batman was supposed to mean.
1
u/Pure-Dragonfruit1899 May 26 '26
Too bad he murders 4 or whatever goons making other kids feel the exact same pain he did -which he remembered didn’t want happening- 5 mins after that martha scene
1
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 26 '26
Trust me those terrorists weren't married. Plus terrorists tend to abuse children.
1
-4
May 25 '26
The murderer is misunderstood?
1
u/Inevitable-Wheel1676 May 26 '26
A lot of heroes both real and imagined have killed people in the line of duty. It is part of the purpose of comics and the related media to help us explore and process these issues. It is what makes Superheroes so beautiful, because they teach us who we can be, and who we should avoid becoming.
1
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 25 '26
Spider-Man has killed. Is he a murderer?
1
May 25 '26
Yes.
Has he ever killed 16 people in one scene?
1
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 25 '26
you count every version and alternate universe of Spider-Man, the highest commonly cited number is about 8 billion people
2
May 25 '26
Nope. we are not talking about every alternate universe version ever here.
2
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 25 '26
Ok. 2099 Spider-Man killed a whole universe. Miles morales easily killed 30
1
May 25 '26
Ok. we are not talking about spider man.
we are talking about the psycho in the batsuit that zack snyder thought was a good idea.
1
0
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 25 '26
lol so you told me Spider-Man doesn’t kill. When I proved you wrong you changed the subject to circle reasoning
2
May 25 '26
You started talking about spiderman and the military to deflect from the fact that murderman here kills without any hesitation whatsoever. and somehow the gcpd is not on his ass hunting him down.
Even the writing for Jim Gordon is shit in the DCEU.
0
0
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 25 '26
Which is not very logical
0
May 25 '26
Says the guy mentioning spiderman and the fucking military in a Batman discussion.
→ More replies (0)
0
May 25 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
2
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 25 '26
Get out of here
0
May 25 '26
For a valid opinion? did this "batman" not kill several people without hesitating?
1
u/slove23 May 26 '26
When ? When does he “ kill several people without hesitating”?
Not in the warehouse scene
2
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 25 '26
He did, but he killed killers. So does the military. On Memorial Day are you anti-military?
-1
May 25 '26
We are talking about Batman here.
not the millitary.
stay on topic.
2
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 25 '26
So… yes
0
May 25 '26
Im not answering deflecting questions.
This Batman is remorseless killer who kills when he absolute does not have to.
1
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 25 '26
I guess same goes for the military then
3
May 25 '26
Since when is Batman in the millitary?
stick to the damn point.
Why does this murderer in a batsuit murder without any valid reason?
1
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 25 '26
Batman, uses military weapons, has the same point as the military.
→ More replies (0)
-1
u/KlDxCHA0S May 25 '26
Yep and that being said it makes the Martha scene just that much more irrelevant, shock value and that’s it, literally used for shock value in the film itself. The name doesn’t make Batman rethink anything it’s simply there to trigger Batman and then him realize it’s his moms name and go oh he has a mother or shit I’m kind of Joe chilling this dude rn let me step off his freaking neck real quick lol
3
u/HomemadeBee1612 He's never fought us. Not us united. May 25 '26
The Martha scene is written and shot perfectly. It's a deeply emotional scene that works as a logical turning point in the fight. See Black Panther: Wakanda Forever, which shamelessly rips off the plot of BvS, for how it totally flubbed the same scene, by not giving Shuri any reason to have a flashback and stop the fight. Martha was a trigger word that affected Batman's thinking for obvious, logical reasons. Wakanda Forever simply said, we give up, we have no idea why she would stop, so just have her do it in an unmotivated way.
0
u/KlDxCHA0S May 25 '26
It’s not or it wouldn’t be so divisive it would be universally loved. The fact it is loved by some tho does give it some merit it has something to it like I said before, the thought of it really is a nice way of making Batman rethink her actions. But the execution was not done perfectly imo and a lot of others well a lot of others just think it’s a stupid idea all around l but I see the nuance and nature of it just it honestly it doesn’t flow right it’s def a point in the story where you have to just go with the flow because it’s kind of jarring I’m sure most people said to themselves why did he say her first name to begin with? Because he had to for the story to get where they wanted it to be
2
u/HomemadeBee1612 He's never fought us. Not us united. May 25 '26
That scene was the heart of the movie and the peak moment in the screenplay. It converged Batman and Superman's canons in a masterful, ingenious way, closing out one act of the movie and propelling us right into the final act. Again, we have Wakanda Forever to show how empty and contrived it feels when a hero pulls themselves back from the brink without having SOMETHING to trigger it. Martha was the answer to the question, what is going to make Batman STOP from going through with the final step of his plan? A word that triggers the memory that was supposed to be the defining moment of his life's mission. And a word that leads to Superman being humanized when Lois comes up and says it's his mother. It worked perfectly and brilliantly.
3
u/lol00912 May 25 '26
This is a common mistake thinking Batman realizing Superman has parents changed his mind. Batman already assumes Superman has parents. This is why, in Batman's rant, he says, "I bet your parents taught you that you mean something, that you're here for a reason. My parents taught me a different lesson, dying in the gutter for no reason at all..."
The reason Snyder shows us Batman's origins again is to highlight Batman's father, Thomas Wayne, mouthing his last breaths of "Martha." The name is what gives Batman pause. It's a direct traumatic trigger to his father's dying struggle. This parallels to Superman's near-death moment.
1
u/KlDxCHA0S May 25 '26
Not a mistake at all, Martha is the catalyst but not what really changes his mind, nothing you said really goes against what Ive said either tbh. You referred to it as a dramatic trigger too. Martha is used to connect Batman and supes that’s it. The name itself isn’t what makes Batman realize he’s just a man he has to be told it’s his mothers name before he realized the severity of everything the fact he’s trying to save his mother, he feels pain and grief and doesn’t want to lose his mother. obviously Superman has parents and ig what I wrote can read as if the simple fact he has parents was the reason but I meant the fact he has loving parents he cares for is the reason if I cud just insert that lol He never realized he had those type of feelings that are inherently human. He never realized he could have a mother remotely similar to his. Martha won’t die tonight. Her name is used again for symbolism it’s not the root of why he’s helping it was just the catalyst that made him realize he’s become Joe chill in a way. What happened to my mother will not happen to yours, what happened to me will not happen to you
1
u/lol00912 May 26 '26
What Superman may be doesn't matter to Batman. What matters is what Superman can do, which Batman is hyper-focused on; good men like Superman can do great evil. What Batman couldn't see was his own reflection, and this is why the Martha scene is important to the narrative and not irrelevant. It wasn't shock value, it was the narrative apex of Batman's arc. Bruce grew increasingly ruthless due to good men becoming bad, creating hopelessness as witnessed by Alfred's comment, "That’s how it starts, sir. The fever. The rage. The feeling of powerlessness. It turns good men... cruel."
It didn't matter if Superman had a mother named Martha or was a good man, this is misframing. The only thing that mattered was Batman finally seeing his own reflection. The Martha scene set up the stage that Batman was far too gone and it required the miracle of coincidence to save Superman from Batman's wrath. Giving faith back to a man who lost faith.
0
u/kung_fu_daddy May 25 '26
yeah we all know this, doesnt make the movie any less ass. batfleck is goated though🐐
2
u/Low_Pie282 May 24 '26
I think the scene is good in theory, but it fell flat in practice. I can see the vision, but it did not work for me.
I love the idea, love the idea. And at parts, I hoped that the Snyder cut would follow on that, but it didn't
The scene ended up funny, but I think with a couple of more tweaks, it could have been better or better received
But I still like the concept. I am conflicted, but I get from where you are coming from
1
u/regularfrog_ May 24 '26
ok i thought you were going to say something actually insightful but that is just the obvious context of the scene which still doesn't make it a good scene
2
3
u/joesb May 23 '26
The realization after thinking might make him stop, but I think it’s the same name that got through and snap him out enough to think at all.
3
u/Fair-Confection4411 May 23 '26
I think the problem is that he didn't have enough reason to want to kill Sup in first place. Especially for the hero know for his not killing rule that applies to his own villains. Why wouldn't it for someone that does the same as him when he didn't even try to talk it out first. Seeing him as something different than a threat is a beautiful moment but it just looks different when he didn't have reason enough to do it in first place.
3
2
4
u/Neon_blader May 23 '26
I really like his character progression , looking forward to james gunn's adaptation tho
2
3
2
5
2
u/theoriginalbabayaga May 23 '26
What’s to misunderstand? He’s the best one. I agree he shoulda got his own movie. But aight.
11
7
May 22 '26 edited May 23 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
0
u/HomemadeBee1612 He's never fought us. Not us united. May 23 '26
We got plenty of Batman in BvS. Especially since Snyder wisely built his version on the general zeitgeist of Batman, instead of starting him over from scratch. The only thing that would’ve benefited BvS was putting the R-rated cut in theaters, and not tried to pretend to be an all-ages adventure romp in the trailers, which just misled some people.
1
u/PresenceOther3601 May 23 '26
Just curious, what about it NEEDS to be R rated?
1
u/HomemadeBee1612 He's never fought us. Not us united. Jun 05 '26
BvS was a dark, adult, psychological and political Watchmen-like thriller. It was falsely sold as something else in the later trailers (the SDCC teaser showed what it really was). It should've been R-rated so that more of the "right" audience showed up, as they did for Logan and Joker. Families with young kids were likely the ones not recommending it to similar people, as they simply weren't the target audience
1
u/PresenceOther3601 Jun 09 '26
That's an interesting reading of it. I'm not sure it's all that comparable to Watchmen though. At the end of the day, BvS still had a fairly standard comic book plot about a super villain manipulating the heroes and creating a (literal) doomsday weapon. Allen Moore's Watchmen, meanwhile, was meant to be a subversion and deconstruction of those mythos, showing what costumed heroes would really look like in the real world: deranged murderous psychopaths like the Comedian, homeless schizophrenics like Rorschach, emotionally cold like Dr Manhattan, people sexually aroused by violence like Nite Owl, or megalomaniacs like Ozymandias. They weren't good guys or bad guys, they all did what they thought was "right". That's what made it stand out from every other comic book about heroes and villains.
1
-4
u/human_bidet69 May 22 '26
As mediocre as the movie was I actually do really appreciate this interpretation of batman. I'm a person who believes there shouldn't be strict rule on how you adapt a character. Batmans existed for more then 70 years we've gotten plenty of story's with batman who doesn't kill. If you don't like a batman that kills, watch something else. And tbh batfleck is just kind of the punisher but cooler. And i genuinely think ben Affleck is an incredible casting choice for batman, but i thi k the suit looks a little silly, but i domt thimk it detracts that much from how badass this version of batman is. I love that this batman at points is actually a little scary. And while I think superman's adaptation was far weaker and I think it kind of dragged down the movie as a whole I don't blame that on Henry cavil at all. I think he's a wonderfull casting choice, but I don't think the script he was given was great.
1
u/ajwooster May 23 '26
Michael Keaton‘s Batman arguably killed just as many people as Ben Affleck Batman…
0
u/HumbleSiPilot77 Tell me... do you bleed? May 23 '26
Mediocre films do not get debated for a decade. They get forgotten. BvS is still generating serious discussion in 2026 because it attempted something genuinely difficult. You are calling it mediocre as a throwaway qualifier while correctly identifying everything that works in it is a contradiction that blows your own argument there.
Batfleck is not the Punisher. Never meant to be, never was and never will be. Frank Castle has a deliberate ideological framework around death as punishment executed with conscious consistency. Batfleck has no such framework. He is jaded, reckless, and mean. The lethality is a byproduct of twenty years of psychological collapse, not a policy decision. That distinction is the entire point of the character in this film.
Superman being the weaker adaptation! That's the sad part of your take. Clark Kent in BvS is deliberately written as uncertain and burdened because the film is asking a question the comics rarely ask seriously. What does it actually feel like to be that powerful in a world that cannot agree on whether you are a god or a threat? The senate hearing, the conversation with Jonathan’s ghost. Those scenes do not survive a weak script. They require a specific vision to exist.
You are praising the scary Batman, the casting, and the flexible adaptation philosophy. All three are products of the filmmaking you are also calling mediocre. You cannot separate what Snyder built from the film he built it in.
0
u/human_bidet69 May 23 '26
to argue with your point on batman everything you described about the punisher and batfleck I feel completely applies to the other as well. And when I say that batfleck to me just feels like the punisher but more bad ass I 100% meant it as praise, I also never claimed that was the intention behind the writing, only that it was the outcome of the writing. And superman, I personally don't see how his character ask that question, he doesn't feel like he has much substance to him at all. To me it feels like Zack Snyder just wrote whatever he thought was cool and left it at that. And I feel like that worked for batman because we've had hundreds of deep introspective batman stories. I can appreciate one that's just bad ass for the sake of it. But superman I'd prefer a story with more substance then style. But everyone has their own opinions and I'm not trying to change yours I'm just giving a rebuttal because I do appreciate the time you took to Write a detailed and well thought out response even if I disagree with it
2
u/HumbleSiPilot77 Tell me... do you bleed? May 23 '26
Your "Batfleck is just Punisher but more badass" comparison doesn't really hold up when you look at how the characters are structured. The Punisher is defined by ideological certainty. His violence comes from a fixed belief system that the criminals deserve death, and he is the instrument of that judgment. Batfleck in BvS is almost the opposite. His violence is not anchored in conviction, it's the result of erosion. He is operating on trauma, instinct, and a collapsing moral framework that he later tries to pull himself back from. Similar methods don't make them equivalent in character design.
About Snyder's Superman, the disagreement is less about "substance vs no substance" and more about what counts as substance. In BVS, Superman is not written as a traditional introspective character who articulates his philosophy. His role is more symbolic and externalized, he is defined through public reaction, institutional response, and competing interpretations of what he represents. The Capitol sequence, the Senate hearing, and the public debate around him are all part of that structure. The point is less "what does Superman think?" and more "what does Superman mean to everyone else, and what does that do to him?"
Sadly, your "Snyder just writes cool stuff" argument is about your ceiling here, I think that flattens what the film is actually doing. Whether someone likes the execution or not, the film is clearly built around a consistent thematic triangle. Superman as uncontrollable power, Batman as fear-driven control, and Lex as narrative manipulation. Those aren't random aesthetic ideas that have no substance, they are interlocking roles in a story about perception, authority, and legitimacy. Where we probably differ is not whether those elements exist, but how effectively they land emotionally and structurally. That's a fair disagreement to have, but it's not the same as saying the intent or substance isn't there in the first place.
1
7
1
3
u/BatmanVeangeace May 22 '26
I've seen him several times, but I don't like him because he's not the kind of character I like; he's not a different kind of Batman that appeals to me.
5
u/golden_er4 May 22 '26
For someone named Batman Vengeance, batfleck is definitely more vengeance than Pattinson
2
6
u/BatmanVeangeace May 22 '26
First: Damn man, it was the only good option I found.
Second: Yes, I agree, Affleck's Batman is more about vengeance than Pattinson's, but it's also more about vengeance than any other. Batman says it's about vengeance, but he follows the path of justice, nothing new there.
2
u/golden_er4 May 22 '26 edited May 22 '26
Yeah you’re right but I’m tired of seeing origins stories or a fair Batman, I loved batfleck for his rawness and his anger on life, he is old and broke his own rule and now kills; and Superman gave him hope to change at his lowest.
I would love to see an even darker and more brutal Batman in live action but it would never be allowed
1
u/HumbleSiPilot77 Tell me... do you bleed? May 23 '26
"Now kills"
That requires premeditated action. He doesn't have it.
-5
May 22 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
7
u/MediaPossible7339 May 22 '26
What is it that you didn’t like about their version of Batman? I think it was refreshing to see a jaded seasoned Batman
3
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 22 '26
I think he means film directing
1
u/HumbleSiPilot77 Tell me... do you bleed? May 23 '26
The film bodies anything made by Gunn in all the areas he mentioned.
1
3
6
10
5
9
-1
u/dirtydimi3 May 22 '26
Ben Affleck's Batman listens to a lot of Joy Division.
1
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 22 '26
Never heard of them. Are they good
0
u/dirtydimi3 May 22 '26
Yes, they're excellent! & Really dreary, gloomy stuff (the singer hung himself & that's how you get the song Blue Monday & New Order).
Man, what are they teaching you cats in school these days?
2
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 22 '26
Lol
4
11
u/Next-Ad-2234 May 22 '26
Bro portrayal of Batman who made me fall in love with this whole Batman thing.
He has a special place in my heart.
5
u/DKF4life Do you bleed? May 22 '26
That’s really good to hear. It upsets me when people misinterpret what he is and what he represents
1
u/Next-Ad-2234 May 22 '26
and also the no kill rule, that's bs they haven't read earliest comics
1
u/HumbleSiPilot77 Tell me... do you bleed? May 23 '26
Not against the rule. I understand its existence and why. The conversation about this in "Under the Red Hood" between Bruce and Jason is worth considering. But Batfleck in his fallen state isn't a punish by death guy. The rule still exists in his world. He's not roaming around as Flashpoint's Thomas Wayne.
7
3
u/NegotiationLate8553 May 26 '26 edited May 28 '26
I’ve always said that the ZS films should have been marketed as “Elseworlds Stories” for audiences to approach them being more open minded.