A level of stupidity you could almost respect.

[u/LordJim11]

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[u/aspghost]

The Unites States wasn't there, the North American landmass was. Australia the state wasn't there, the Australian landmass was. It gets confusing (and open to bad-faith interpretation or manipulation) when we use the same terms for both the state and landmass. Ancestral group is another thing again. I would happily argue Anglo-Saxons are not British.

[u/AdventurousShower223 → u/aspghost]

Ironically Norman clans in Scotland who literally invaded are considered Scottish.

[u/LordJim11 → u/AdventurousShower223]

The Scots tend to be a lot more casual about it than the English. If you have the accent, the attitude and hate the English that's generally good enough.

[u/Fit_Speed3159 → u/LordJim11]

I'm told that the most dangerous thing you can do in the British isles is ask a Scotsman what part of England they're from

[u/aspghost → u/AdventurousShower223]

Did any of them take a citizenship test? Show us the documentation!

[u/sizebigbitch → u/aspghost]

"My ancestors passport was iron and wood. That was good enough for great x16 grandpa William, it's good enough for me!" - those Scottish clans today, probably

[u/AdventurousShower223 → u/aspghost]

They are literally well known Scottish Clans in Scotland. The Grant family which I am a part of is an institution of Scotland. Glenfiddich distillery is a Grant family / Clan distillery. They participated on both sides of the Scottish war of Independence against and for England. They are the original majority population of the Blackwatch in the UK military.

[u/aspghost → u/AdventurousShower223]

Go back to France!

[u/Sure_Fruit_8254 → u/AdventurousShower223]

Grant? Don't you mean le Grand? Doesn't sound Scottish to me.

[u/Cute-Hand-1542 → u/aspghost]

Where do you think the word 'English' comes from?

[u/FlyingRigatoniMonst]

Are there actually people that don’t think black people born in England are English? Have not heard that one.

[u/Mysterious-Hyena2670]

“United States North America” Must be a bot cause the fuck 🤣

[u/roquejosue → u/Mysterious-Hyena2670]

I think bots are usually better than people with these types of things

[u/SimpleMoonFarmer → u/Mysterious-Hyena2670]

Scooby Doo meme: Unmasks bot, it’s just someone in a 3rd world country farming engagement.

Have you seen ChatGPT making grammatical mistakes?

[u/pursnikitty → u/Mysterious-Hyena2670]

Yeah because all humans have high levels of literacy and no one is ever bad at it

[u/AuryxTheDutchman → u/Mysterious-Hyena2670]

I feel like they said it that way to specifically differentiate “north america” from “the united states of america”

[u/paradoxxxicall → u/AuryxTheDutchman]

It looks to me like they wrote North America, changed their mind and added United States but forgot to delete North America.

I do this all the time.

[u/Inside_Ad_7162]

If you're born in England you're English. Dumb racist fukrs.

There's a letter to Elizabeth I complaining about all the foreigners taking the locals jobs too. So pretending this is some "new trend" is bollocks too.

[u/UnbeatenDart → u/Inside_Ad_7162]

For some reason people are going around with the idea that the country is at breaking point. Its all just spreading fear and creating scapegoats for the larger issue effecting every country in the world, wealth inequality.

[u/Inside_Ad_7162 → u/UnbeatenDart]

Yeah its total bs propoganda being pushed by bot farms in ruzzia, its no accident dump & elmo suddenly freaked out when ruzz data centers were hit. The same craps being pushed in the uk by bad actors like farage & elmo who is backing them. It's just lies to create division & spread hate.

[u/GrimlandsSurvivor → u/Inside_Ad_7162]

Complaining about immigrants to your imported German royalty is wild.

[u/NtechRyan → u/Inside_Ad_7162]

I would've said they're British, and English is now an ethnic group. Like being born in america wouldnt make you Cherokee, but you are an american.

I will say I didnt realize this would be so contentious, and dont fully understand why people are up in arms.

[u/OverseerConey → u/NtechRyan]

I would've said they're British, and English is now an ethnic group.

England is still a distinct, recognised country. Someone born and raised in Coventry is English; someone born and raised in Dumfries is Scottish; both are British.

[u/NtechRyan → u/OverseerConey]

I didn't realize they still saw themselves that way

[u/OverseerConey → u/NtechRyan]

Oh, yeah - the UK's constituent nations have their own identities, laws, political parties, and so forth.

[u/Routine_Ad_2695]

What? Citizenship status and cultural inclusion is not determined by race, a black person born and raised on the UK is British, Jude Bellingham for example

Ethnicity is other thing, and have nothing to do with being part of X or Y state and more with ethnic heritage

[u/NtechRyan → u/Routine_Ad_2695]

See you said British, but are they English? Does England still consider itself a state in thay way?

[u/UnhappyStrain]

Well technically those landmasses only became America and Australia AFTER white europeans named them that, when u think about it..../s

[u/antsh → u/UnhappyStrain]

America was named after an Italian, ergo only Italians can be American.

[u/LordJim11 → u/antsh]

If it were it would be Vespucciland. Royalty get to use their first name (Georgia, Williamsburg, Charleston) but commoners use their surname (Raleigh, Sydney, Wellington).

[u/Ruthrfurd-the-stoned]

This is nationality vs ethnicity

Most states have historically been largely ethnostates- places like the US are historically atypical due to heavily separating national and ethnic identity.

[u/HalcyonTraveler → u/Ruthrfurd-the-stoned]

By historically you mean the last 250 years or so, yeah? Pre nationalism it was a lot more complicated and usually in Europe it was more about the sovereign than the people 

[u/Ruthrfurd-the-stoned → u/HalcyonTraveler]

This usually tied to ethnic groups. People didnt move around nearly as much as they do now so this is kinda how ethnicities became a thing so no this goes back thousands of years. Like yes both Athens and Sparta were both Greeks and they had Persians and Egyptians living there but by and large the ethically Greeks were in Greece and the ethnically Egyptians were in Egypt

Yes it does get more complicated like you had the Ptolemaic Dynasty who ruled Egypt but were ethically Greek and this was understood largely up until Cleopatra who embraced Egypt- for the most part though only royal elite classes would ever not be seen as their standard ethnic group

[u/HalcyonTraveler → u/Ruthrfurd-the-stoned]

That's not really how it worked though, there was no sense of "the people" as nationalism has it, the state was defined by divine right or lineage in most cases, not the idea that it represented an ethnic group. Yes people moved around less, but the ideas of what made you Greek or Egyptian had more to do with how you dressed and spoke than your ancestry.

[u/TramLover2543 → u/HalcyonTraveler]

he probably means today for basically every country outside the western world

[u/No_Communication5538]

It seems that a disproportionate number of female bigots have compound first names - like Sally-Anne. Is there a reason?

[u/Bland_OldMan]

What i don't understand is why anyone still uses Twitter. It's a nest of bots, trolls, and right wing assholes, and is owned by a giant POS

[u/bridgeburner84]

I start to answer crap like this in debates, and then I remember how stupid and asinine the notions of Ethnicity and Nationality are. Ultimately, I just don't care about them. They need to fade to background concepts, mere flavour-text in how we talk about ourselves. We're people, humans. The sooner we start to think like this, the better.

[u/Bol0gna_Sandwich → u/bridgeburner84]

Yeah suits drew those imaginary lines and we should tear them down. We will never leave this rock and travel the stars without the full cooperation of humanity as a singular entity. But people get far too entrenched in tribalism for this to happen in my lifetime, even I am guilty of partaking in tribalist mentality.

[u/bridgeburner84 → u/Bol0gna_Sandwich]

Me too. It's a hard mindset to break when you're raised in it from birth. Raised to think it's a law of the universe, and not a human-made thing.

[u/TramLover2543 → u/Bol0gna_Sandwich]

those arbitrary lines existed before suits existed and before we learned to write and read.

Just like the concept of a country it serves an important purpose, you can look at how "countries" that are more a collection of tribes do vs those with a national concept, or how many wars the germans, italians had between each other before they became one

[u/Bol0gna_Sandwich → u/TramLover2543]

They're fucking us! The suits! And they dont even wear suits! Wolves in turds clothing!

[u/PresidentPopcorn]

I've never heard that take but I also don't hang around Reform voters.

[u/CYMK_Pro]

Buddy, if Idris Elba walked up to me and started talking in his native accent, there is no way I would think anything other than "this guy is English".

[u/QuickPizzaRadishes]

A black person born in England is English. English citizenship has nothing whatsoever to do with Anglo-Saxon ancestry. What kind of idiot would think it does???

The King’s father was Greek and his mother came from the Germanic Sax-Coburn family line. Even though parts of the family line have Scottish and Welsh ties, it is unlikely that you would find any Anglo-Saxon ancestry in his blood. And that is the point. Britain is a mix of peoples from all over, of which Anglo-Saxons were just one part along with several many others

[u/Agile-Candle-626 → u/QuickPizzaRadishes]

Umm achkually there is no English Citizenship. We're all British.

[u/halucionagen-0-Matik]

"If I name it, it belongs to me"

[u/Ok-Ship812]

Anglo Saxons are not 'native' Britons by the way.

Celts and Beaker People were there before them (and the Romans)

[u/Comfortable_Air5477]

As a side issue it really annoys me that the UK Census, under "Ethnicity" only allows you to be English and White.

Not exactly giving off the right message there ☹️

[u/SinesPi]

"English" is a culture, a nationality, and an ethnicity.

When talking about whether someone is english or not, you need to be clear which you mean.

[u/UnbeatenDart → u/SinesPi]

And even ethnicity doesn't just just take into account ancestry, but other things like language and traditions. People often get the terms ethnicity and ancestry mixed up

[u/AnonymousKnave]

How are people missing the point of what he’s saying? He’s 100% correct about this.

The United States was founded by White, European Settlers. Ergo, the United States didn’t exist until white people were there. The continent wasn’t even called America until Europeans made landfall there, that’s a EUROPEAN naming convention.

The same thing is true for Australia.

The poster is saying, “Racial heritage wasn’t what gave these places their names, it was the people who founded them. These places and nations didn’t exist as we know them today until white settlers and colonists came and settled them.”

Aboriginal means “Non-colonial Australian.”

Native American means “Non-colonial American.”

This obfuscation between ethnicity and nationality is ridiculous. Anyone born in England and raised in English culture is definitionally English, the same way anyone born in the United States and raised in U.S. culturally American.

Who the fuck is arguing that a Black Englishmen aren’t English? Race is irrelevant to your nationality.

[u/Nadilli]

A black person born in England is English

[u/ProperJudgment1 → u/Nadilli]

Lol

[u/Distinct_Farmer6974]

I think this is just a confusion of terms. Most people living in Australia and America are not indigenous, so if Australian and American only referred to ethnically (indigenous) Australian/American people, very few people would be called Australian/American.

BUT most people in England are ethnically English, so people want to use "English" to clear refer to the ethnicity. I doubt anybody, even many right-wingers are actually claiming that Black people born in England are not nationally English, they're just clearly not ethnically English.

[u/theOriginalGBee → u/[deleted]]

Err, no.  English drives from Angles, the peoples who migrated to modern Britain from an area of modern Germany.

They along with the Saxons and Jutes settled around the same time and are largely referred to as the Anglo-Saxons today.

[u/roquejosue → u/[deleted]]

English is an ethnicity though.

[u/Kresnik2002 → u/Distinct_Farmer6974]

Exactly. It’s just ethnicity vs nationality. This isn’t hard guys. Both exist. Ethnicity is what your ancestry is, nationality is what your passport is. Most American citizens are, in fact, not American by ethnicity. Only indigenous people are. We still call the rest of us American when we’re talking about nationality. A black person with a British passport is also, in the same way, not British by ethnicity. While they are British by nationality. Do we have to claw at each other’s faces every time we state this?

[u/UnbeatenDart → u/Kresnik2002]

Ethnicity isnt ancestry. By definition ethnicity refers to "a large group of people who share a common cultural background, language, history, traditions, ancestry, or religion". Some of these are quite changeable and conceptual. For example religion in England has changed considerably over the past 2000 years, and how do you judge who you share history with. These are mostly matters based on opinion, not fact. Ancestry is the only component that can be easily discerned, the rest are open to individual interpretation.

[u/Kresnik2002 → u/UnbeatenDart]

When does ethnicity not correlate with ancestry? And what does religion changing in England have to do with it

[u/UnbeatenDart → u/Kresnik2002]

Ancestry is just another factor of an ethnic group. Again its open to interpretation, but I dont consider there to be a need to conform to all those factors to be ethnically English, religion being a key difference, some people will be Christian, and further still assign themselves to a different group of Christians, or not be religious at all or keep different religions altogether, and still be considered as English as each other, and so if one factor of an ethnicity can be so flimsy then why can't the other features be likewise interpreted loosely. Basically all components of Ethnicity bar ancestry are conceptual and loosely defined such that how many of them you'd have to conform to to be considered English will depend on whoever you ask and your own opinions.

[u/Kresnik2002 → u/UnbeatenDart]

I didn’t say all those factors, I said ancestry.

[u/UnbeatenDart → u/Kresnik2002]

What im getting at is if, hypothetically, you were a non English speaker who confirmed to all the other factors are you still considered English, and if you didnt need to conform to certain factors to be a part of an ethnic group could you theoretically tick all the boxes but ancestry and still be considered English, or is being majority ancestry English a deal breaker for being considered ethnically English or not.

[u/Kresnik2002 → u/UnbeatenDart]

The only situation I can really think of is if someone’s ancestors came to the country so long ago that they aren’t even aware of it, or something like that. Someone from Italy who moves to England and conforms in every way to English culture would still generally be called ethnically Italian, wouldn’t they?

[u/UnbeatenDart → u/Kresnik2002]

Ancestrally Italian, yes. Ethnically is open to interpretation. I am not really sure where the line is here

[u/Kresnik2002 → u/UnbeatenDart]

To you I guess, in my experience such folks would always be called ethnically Italian by most people

[u/misec_undact → u/Kresnik2002]

What tf does skin colour have to do with it?

There have been black people in Britain since before the Anglo Saxons...

[u/Kresnik2002 → u/misec_undact]

I don’t think there are any black people in the UK who are of just English ancestry lol

[u/misec_undact → u/Kresnik2002]

There's no such thing as "just English ancestry"... Vikings and Normans from Francia, Denmark, Norway and Sweden, Anglo Saxons from Germania, Celts from Anatolia, Belgium, Switzerland, Austria, Romans from everywhere, etc.. that's "English" ancestry...

[u/TiberiusTheFish]

you mean there was no 'there', there?

[u/LordJim11]

Don't ever call me ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvr7rFzarYs

[u/Derfel60]

Would you say that white people in Australia or America are ethnically Australian/American? I certainly wouldnt. Id say they were ethnically English/Dutch/Irish/German/etc.

[u/Gingrpenguin]

But the person does seem to be drawing a distinction between white Australians and aboriginals...

They almost get it...

[u/BobLabReeSorJefGre]

As Weird Al once said, “Dare to be stupid.”

[u/_probablyryan]

Is this person under the impression that the world is procedurally generated and the chunks load in like Minecraft based on where the players go?

[u/darkfireice]

"Nationality" doesn't necessarily equate to "ethnicity" (despite the roots of those words meant the same in their respective mother languages (Latin and Greek, respectively)). Personally as a 3rd generation Merican, I find few things more vile than an ethno state (deliberately avoids glaring East)

[u/Extra_Zucchini_1273]

Those countries wernt countries and had diffrent names before whitey got there so this is correct.

[u/Direct_Garlic_6783]

Its objectively true that Australia and the United States (the nations) did not exist before Europeans went there.

[u/False__Willingness → u/Direct_Garlic_6783]

The land existed before europeans arrived there. People existed there before europeans arrived. It doesn’t matter what political constructs was made after, if europeans who didn’t originally belong there can comfortably be treated as belonging to those places then so should everyone else. No double standards

[u/LLMbyProxy]

Yeah take that, descendants of Jutes! You’ll never be English!

[u/Mobile_Toe_1989]

Jarvis, sort by controversial

[u/nstav13]

The issue described is a confusion of Ethnicity and Nationality, and using similar words to describe both across cultures that don't agree. 

America is a melting pot of cultures and ideas. There is no true American ethnicity. It is a nationality - meaning a nation you are originally from or legally ascribe yourself to. But White and Hispaanic Americans still call themselves Italian, German, English, etc. Part of this is pride in their hertiage. Part is that only the most racist deeo south, lost cause bs, whites consider American as their ethnicity (ahout 5% of Americans). This is not true for Black Americans due to the systematic erasure if their culture, or for some (about half of) Asian Americans who seem to care more assimilation. 

English, for the past 1000 years was not just a Nationality, but an Ethnicity too. A first generation man from Pakistan can becone an English National, but conservatives take issue with the world because of the Implication of Ethnicity. 

This is what Sally-Anne was most likely, ineloquently, trying to articulate. The recent creation of America and Australia as Nations means that they are less well defined as ethnicities. 

I'd be curious if Australians see thenselves as Ethnically Australian, since it seems their culture is more monolithic than America's, from the outside. 

[u/Lorelessone]

A black person born in England is English.

Why can't water be wet??

Saying a black person in England isn aboriginal is fine just as white Australians certainly aren't aboriginal.

[u/misec_undact → u/Lorelessone]

Being white in England doesn't make you "aboriginal" LMAO

[u/Lorelessone → u/misec_undact]

Yes? obviously?

But did did someone say being white made you aboriginal British?

[u/misec_undact → u/Lorelessone]

There are no aboriginal British... and it has zero to do with skin colour.

[u/Lorelessone → u/misec_undact]

How bizarrely racist.

Please do explain that wild and impossible claim.

[u/misec_undact → u/Lorelessone]

Lol, the person excluding legitimacy of a nationality based on skin colour complaining about racism is peak irony.

There's no such thing as "aboriginal English"... Vikings and Normans from Francia, Denmark, Norway and Sweden, Anglo Saxons from Germania, Celts from Anatolia, Belgium, Switzerland, Austria, Romans from everywhere, etc.. that's "English" ancestry...

[u/Panthera2k1]

One is a nationality, one is a genetic heritage. You can be English but not of English descent, you can be Native American but live in New Zealand.

[u/CountingChips]

A white Australian can be Australian but they're not indigenous/aboriginal.

A white American can be American but they're not Native American.

Similarly, a black person can be English but they're not ethnically English.

These concepts aren't hard to understand...

[u/No_Mine7320 → u/CountingChips]

they are for bigots online however

[u/splendidvociferous → u/CountingChips]

Is anyone ethnically English then? We've had too many wars for that I think?

[u/egoldbarzzz → u/splendidvociferous]

No one is ethnically “English”. They’re decedents from Anglo-Saxon or native Briton (Celtic) stock. Maybe you have Jute ancestors as well.

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[u/Opposite_Corner8353 → u/egoldbarzzz]

So they're ethnically English, that's the literal core make up lol

[u/x5163x → u/splendidvociferous]

They found that a teacher in Cheddar, England was related to Cheddar Man.

[u/Cute-Hand-1542 → u/splendidvociferous]

Yes, of course. 

[u/showusyourfupa → u/splendidvociferous]

English is a mongrel breed.

[u/CountingChips → u/splendidvociferous]

Of course. The English DNA is a blend of the pre-existing Brittonic "Celts", Anglo-Saxons and a sprinkle of Viking DNA. Different studies argue regarding the amount of Brittonic vs Anglo-Saxon DNA, but it's probably around 50/50 depending on where you are in England.

FYI Anglo-Saxons have been in England for 1600 years. More than enough time to be considered part of the indigenous English people.

[u/Ok-Telephone-2109]

Why don't they wanna be called African-English?

[u/can_pacis]

I'm pretty sure England didn't exist before Anglo Saxons went there. Heck, it didn't even exist for a while after they went.

[u/UnbeatenDart → u/can_pacis]

As a kingdom England existed under the anglo saxons. Was unified fully under Æthelstan, had intermittent anglo-saxon and Danish rule then was conquered by the normans. The anglo saxons also didnt go anywhere they just somewhat adopted some of the language and traditions of the new imported norman nobility, as the normans in turn did the same with the people they ruled over.

[u/stag1013]

Look up the word "polyseme".

A black person can be English, but they can't be English. And it's not just blacks, but it's true for Poles and other Europeans as well.

"American" doesn't have a second meaning. The natives go by other terms (specific ones like Cree, Ojibway, etc), and even the collective term isn't "American" but usually "native American", "Aboriginal" or something of the like. Similarly for Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

So first of all, a black person can be English under one sense of the term, and very few dispute that at all. And under the second sense of the term, (a) this sense doesn't exist in North America or Australia, and (b) has nothing to do with black vs white, since it's also true of other white ethnicities.

[u/m3gb0t]

I had to read it several times to unpack this gibberish.

[u/TheJoshGriffith]

Ahhh, ethnicity vs nationality, the age old debate.

No. A black person cannot be ethnically British. By the time they do so (generationally), they would be more white than black (in the genetic sense). They can, however, be nationally British, and there's no shame in that.

That said, why would somebody object so much to their heritage that they'd want to consider themselves ethnically British? Supposedly we're one of the most evil and horrific of colonial rulers in history (barring the Mongolians and the Romans).

Be yourself. Own it. Vast majority of modern people don't give a shit about the colour of your skin, your love of fried chicken or curry, or whatever else. The world is a melting pot. All that anybody cares about is that you behave and act appropriately in the country in which you reside. In the case of the UK, that means a decent but cynical work ethic, a good albeit lazy attitude towards the maintenance of personal property (e.g gardening and such), along side a nod/wave/cursory "hey" to anybody you walk past in the street.

[u/chumbawumbaprinciple → u/TheJoshGriffith]

So what are they?

Keep in mind what you lot say about Americans when you formulate an answer.

[u/TheJoshGriffith → u/chumbawumbaprinciple]

Ethnically? That's an individual thing. I consider myself ethnically Welsh - that said, I was born in England, and my mother has 2 generations of English heritage before her bloodline slipped back over the border.

In terms of nationality, I'm English through and through. Born here, to a purebred Welsh parent and a mixed English/Welsh one. I've never known any other culture, and aside from being somewhat obsessive about the Welsh Rarebit (something I'd highly recommend), I ought to be breeding whippets.

America is ethnically British. Do you find that somehow surprising or disturbing? If so, that's on you. Again, this is a fairly well defined doctrine. Ethnicity is one thing, nationality is another. The one thing I would argue is that Americans are far closer to British than they'd like to believe. There's some substantial variation in how they like to perceive themselves (settlers in the new land) and the reality of it (invaders against native communes), but that is what it is. The US has fought many wars to redefine its heritage.

Ethnicity of course does have a limit, which probably varies from the individual. I maintain that Americans are ethnically British because aside from things like the right to bear arms (something which the UK would likely follow suit on), we're unlikely to diverge. I still see the people of the USA as effective cousins - I disagree with them on various issues, but I agree on far more. Let people fuck who they want to fuck. Let them buy what they want to buy. Limit the capacity of capitalist (or indeed socialist) entities to impose their views on others... Live and let live, basically.

[u/chumbawumbaprinciple → u/TheJoshGriffith]

I didn't ask what you were, could you maybe be brave and answer the question I actually asked?

[u/TramLover2543 → u/chumbawumbaprinciple]

british nationals, ethnically wherever they're actually from. Same as if a kid is born to english parents in zimbambwe, and grows up there, zimbambwean national of english ethnicity

[u/chumbawumbaprinciple → u/TramLover2543]

So what Americans do then.

[u/TheJoshGriffith → u/chumbawumbaprinciple]

What are they? What are who? If you're going to ask a question, ask it. Fuck off with this cryptic bollocks.

[u/chumbawumbaprinciple → u/TheJoshGriffith]

Go back, read the meme, feel embarrassed at being dumb, report back, apologize for being dumb, then provide your answer.