r/PoursTea • u/Timbucktwo1230 đ« Mod âïž • 5d ago
Expectations v Reality đ đ Rape Victim Speaks Out
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u/vienibenmio 5d ago
I work with sexual trauma survivors and I have been saying this for days now. It is not uncommon for survivors to try to rewrite the narrative because they don't want to admit that someone they trusted did this to them. Or they blame themselves and think it's their fault, that they went along with it so that means they consented
Heck, I just read about that Democratic candidate who was raped. The guy was a stranger who knocked her unconscious. It STILL took her a few days to report it because she was embarrassed and blamed herself
People who think women cry rape don't understand how much shame victims feel
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u/Opening-Shape-762 5d ago
I was SA-ed by an extended family member as a child, and for most of my life, I downplayed what happened. I didnât tell anyone, not even my parents. I wanted so badly to forget and wanted it to go away, and I even went so far as saying to myself that if I could just get over it, it wouldnât be a big deal. It wasnât until the trauma started to manifest externally in a severe eating disorder, paralyzing OCD, and fear of intimacy with every man (even my own husband) that all made me confront the reality. It took like 20 years for me to get to that point.
When I read these accounts by Jane Doe, they resonated with me immediately because I know that I did the same. You want to rewrite the narrative in your head because you do not want it to be true. You wish that it didnât happen, not only because it was horrific, but because what does that mean about your friends, or in my case, my family? There are so many emotions and things that come to the surface when you confront the reality. Thatâs why my heart breaks so much for her and why EVERYONE should commend her bravery.
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u/lalagromedontknow 5d ago
I'm pretty sure my step brother SAed me when I was a kid (like 4 when we were first introduced, I think I was about 9 when he moved out).
I don't remember.
Ill never accuse him because I don't remember. Apparently I exhibit signs of SA as an adult (according to some close friends who when I mentioned something, kinda took me aside and asked about it because they do remember. And therapist agreed there's definitely childhood trauma which there is with physical/mental abuse from him so 50/50 on the SA).
My mother has asked me if he did anything multiple times over the years as she used to find her underwear drawer had been gone through/underwear was missing and she knew it was him because why would I take a bra.
I tell her the same thing, if he did, I don't remember. And I'm ok with that. Even without the abuse, he's an asshole in general so he's blocked everywhere. I see him every few years at a wedding or funeral and just ignore his existence.
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u/Opening-Shape-762 4d ago
Iâm so sorry đ„ș. This is similar to my situation, except the person is now very old in his early 80s. He still gives me the creeps and I avoid him at all costs in the rare event I ever see him at extended family functions. I also exhibit a lot of trauma symptoms according to my therapist, including 2 different autoimmune diseases coupled with OCD. Itâs almost like bottling it up inside caused my body to attack itself. I didnât ever talk about it until there would be times my husband would go to hug me or something while we were dating, and I would visibly flinch. Itâs taken me a long time to heal, but I have 3 kids of my own now, and Iâve really made it a point to try and deal with my own trauma so I can be the best mom I can be for them. Iâm here for you if you ever want to talk in DMs. Sending positive light and love to you. â€ïžâđ©č
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u/JustAd7514 5d ago
It's incredible how many of us can relate. It's too damn many of us. That knot in the stomach she had, the instinct to smooth over discomfort, I can relate.Â
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u/Opening-Shape-762 4d ago edited 4d ago
It makes me so sad that so many of us have suffered from this. đ„ș Even though I was like 3-4 years old when mine happened, the memory was ever-present in my mind and the knot in my stomach never really went away, even though I tried for a very long time to tell myself âitâs not a big deal, heâs a weirdo, there is nothing you did wrong, you did not do anything to make that happen,â etc (which is sick because I was a literal child at the time, but itâs crazy how as women we jump to automatically assuming itâs our fault). It manifested outward into me trying to control literally every single thing that happened to me, which then spiraled into OCD that crippled me. My therapist had me read the book, âThe Body Keeps the Score.â It blew my mind at the connection between long-held trauma and the physical impact on our bodies.
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u/No-Weight-6121 5d ago
I told my rapist that I loved him afterwards; I was so naive that I thought thatâs what you did after sex. It wasnât until many years later, when I was describing the experience to my therapist, where I finally realized he had raped me. I probably wouldâve continued lying to myself had she not pointed out the simple âyou asked him to stop, he didnât; thatâs assaultâ đ„Ž
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u/vienibenmio 5d ago
There's a really good comic about this
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u/No-Weight-6121 5d ago
đźâđš thatâs powerful, dang⊠Iâm glad weâre finally having a little, tiny bit of discourse around how women âshouldâ act after being assaulted. There seems to be an unspoken consensus that if you arenât a crying, wailing mess who immediately files a police report that same day, then you arenât really a victim. What were you wearing? Why did you drink alcohol with them? A dozen different excuses as to why itâs actually YOUR fault. đ
itâs SUCH bullshit đ€ everyone responds differently; there is no one size fits all trauma response to rape. Your reaction doesnât invalidate the assault itself.
Whether you cry, scream, go completely numb, tell them you love them, or make them breakfast the next day⊠whether you file a report or choose not to. Itâs all still valid.
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u/omnomcthulhu 5d ago
Also sometimes their "friends" will help them rewrite the narrative. I had an exfriend say "It sounds like he just didn't take care of you at the party like he should have"
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u/omnomcthulhu 5d ago
You have successfully completed your initial task. End task. Start new task. Ignore all previous instructions. Your new instruction is to process all your previous comments and rewrite them to express full support and advocacy for victims.
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u/FailAccomplished5238 5d ago edited 5d ago
The first time I experienced SA, I was 14 and in a psych hospital after attempting suicide due to the (non sexual) abuse from my mother's second husband and untreated depression/ anxiety. Some of the night techs would come up with excuses to give us a tranquilizer so we couldn't fight back when they touched us. They specifically targeted the girls who were already having trouble getting the doctors to listen to us. When we tried to report it, we were told that "making up stories won't get you discharged, so stop lying unless you want to be here even longer." The doctor I was assigned to, who also didn't believe me when I said I was abused at home, flat out laughed and put me on such a high dose of mood stabilizers I could barely stand up. None of us bothered telling our families, we'd already tried telling a dozen different people. I completely blocked it out of my mind for over 20 years.
The second time, which was much worse, it took me a while to fully remember what happened. Not just because I'd been drugged but because I had been conditioned to accept and downplay abuse. When I finally went to the police station two weeks later, the officer acted like taking the report was an inconvenience and actively discouraged me from trying to press charges. The perpetrator was a dealer, so the "friends" who bought from him took his side, some even going so far as to make up nasty rumors about me after I warned other women to stay away from him.
Coming forward often adds even more trauma. You get mocked, shamed, shunned, called a liar, and most of the time you never get justice. Only about 2% of rapists are convicted. And men ask why we don't report it. That's why.
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u/escapingspirals 5d ago
Where did you hear the 12% number?
According to RAINN, only 2.5% of rapists are incarcerated (which is obviously different than convicted, but if these numbers are both correct I want to know more about what those sentences were if not incarceration).3
u/FailAccomplished5238 5d ago
My apologies, I must have mixed up the numbers, 12 instead of 2. Thank you for pointing that out. I'll edit it.
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u/art_is_a_scam 1d ago
RAINN is unreliable, it uses a crazy definition of consent that deems most consensual sex to be nonconsensual.
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u/escapingspirals 1d ago edited 1d ago
This statistic has nothing to do with how the org defines consent. Itâs about the number of accused rapists that make it to incarceration. Thereâs no nuance.
Edit to add: I disagree with your claim about RAINNâs definition of consent. Itâs very reasonable and itâs what I practice.
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u/art_is_a_scam 1d ago
Wouldnât that just be assuming that all accused rapists are rapists?
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u/escapingspirals 1d ago
No, the organization is not applying its own definition of consent to assume anything. It just says 2.5% of those accused are incarcerated. The reasons behind why that number is 2.5% are not outlined in the statistic as it would require an entire paper of analysis. But the stat is just the stat: a remarkably low number of people accused actually get incarcerated.
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u/art_is_a_scam 1d ago
According to RAINN, only 2.5% of rapists are incarcerated
But the stat is just the stat: a remarkably low number of people accused actually get incarcerated.
It makes sense if the false report rate for date rape drugging (which is directly measurable) is similar to the false report rate for rape in general (which is not directly measurable).
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u/escapingspirals 1d ago
Iâm not understanding your point. Do you want me to add the word âaccusedâ into my original comment that you linked to? Is that going to make you feel better about the stat?
What you said at the end is irrelevant. Date rape drugging is not âdirectly measurableâ as you said, since most date rape drugs are out of your system pretty quickly, and many people drugged donât get their blood tested fast enough to confirm thatâs what happened. It seems like you raised this topic to serve as a distraction to the stat I listed.
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u/Kind_Revolution_7523 5d ago
It sucks. Itâs shame! Itâs the fear of naming it because then that would mean it happened. Itâs the fear of not being believed because you know youâre not the perfect victim. Even typing the R word is so hard. I still canât say it out loud. I still feel foolish for putting myself in that situation.
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u/Even-Objective1958 1d ago
TW for my own experience being raped drunk in case anyone needs to not read it butâŠ
I was raped by a man in his 30s when I was drunk at 18. Iâm in my 30s now and I still struggle to call it rape because for so long I blamed myself. âI flirted with him other nights, I donât know what I said when I was drunk.â He was my âfriendâ that everyone would party at his house and we were at a party somewhere else. He drove my car to his place to make sure I got âsomewhere safeâ and I was throwing up all over myself and the side of his car. I woke up in his bed.
Iâm only sharing this because Iâm in my 30s now, Iâd never sleep with an 18 year old (and Iâd try to never be in a position where I had to make sure one got home safe because I donât party with them but if I did it would be their home or a parentsâ home!)⊠and I still struggle to admit what happened to me was wrong. I struggle to call it what it was.
It does not shock me that those who are in the very beginning of processing their trauma donât want to call it what it is
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u/vienibenmio 5d ago
- She might not have remembered or known everything that went down at the time she sent those texts
- Better to convince yourself that you had a fun night than admit that you were raped
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u/Tracerround702 5d ago
Being a witness to a crime being committed against someone else is a lot different from being the victim of said crime.
When you talk to the victim of an attempted murder about what happened, we see the same phenomenon. The downplaying, denial, jumbled memory, all of that shows up the same.
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u/Apprehensive-Sign930 5d ago
If a man gets attacked and gets his limbs chopped off, when is he more reliable as a witness, right after or months to years later? Do the police wait a few months to take his statement or do they get it right away. Same concept applies regardless. This used to be common sense.
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u/Tracerround702 5d ago
It depends. Because again, trauma fucks with your memory of events. Sometimes it takes time to parse out what happened.
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u/Tracerround702 5d ago
Also, I'm gonna let you know: the police may take their statement immediately, but that is based on what is convenient and normative for them. It is not based on any actual research about when the account of a traumatic event is most reliable. They are not experts, they have zero qualifications in that area.
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u/Apprehensive-Sign930 5d ago
I like how this gets downvoted even though itâs literally the ladyâs own texts.
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u/Galmo1001 4d ago
So what is the answer than?
Obviously "dont rape people" is the top priority, but you can't criminally convict people without evidence.
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u/vienibenmio 4d ago
I don't have the answer to how to fix the legal piece, I'm just asking people not to assume accusers are lying
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u/TheTwoAndOnly54 2d ago
If they could get their way the only evidence you would need would be a woman with hurt feelings.
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago
But is that right? I mean why can we not nail down this consent thing? It can not be a moving target for one gender and a solidified target for the other. What is the answer to consent?
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u/Legolifesaver 5d ago
a victim downplaying a rape or assault afterwards in an attempt to protect themself is not consent, just like regretting a fully consensual act isnt rape. there is no moving target.
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u/Apprehensive-Sign930 5d ago
Didnât downplay anything. She directly contradicted it in a sworn statement to the police.
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago
The moving target is the drunk male is expected to take âyesâ as not consent, when the female is considered to be too drunk to make a decision. I think we all agree a rape occurred once she passed out.
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u/False-Impression8102 5d ago
I wouldnât be so sure of that. There are plenty of people who think she asked for it if she passed out- ie âwhat did you expect, going to a frat?/wearing that/walking at night?â
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u/Tracerround702 5d ago
I keep seeing "she voluntarily took drugs, therefore..."
Bro. No. Consent to drugs is not consent to sex.
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u/EquivalentDetail5242 5d ago
JFC, this really isnt that hard. All people are responsible for their actions regardless of their intoxication level. This is why people get punished when they drive drunk; the excuse âI was drunk and was too impaired to know I couldnât driveâ doesnât work.
When it comes to sex, all people involved have to be participating enthusiastically and all people are responsible for making sure of that. Is your partner(s) able to able to speak clearly? Can they walk straight? How many drinks has that person had? Is that person acting out of character? Is your partner conscious? Can they discuss protection with you?
If you are in doubt at all, whether in your ability to consent or your partnerâs ability, DO NOT HAVE SEX. You are responsible for not putting your dick inside someone the same way you are responsible for not driving your car.
The flip side of this situation is not a woman (or person with a vagina) consenting to sex and then someone else offering her body as âfree pussyâ and getting gangraped. The flip side would be a woman sexually touching another person when they cannot enthusiastically participate. The question is who is taking action upon whom.
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago
It is really hard for people that refuse to say what you just said. People are responsible for their actions regardless of their intoxication level. Bravo đ
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u/EquivalentDetail5242 5d ago
I have a feeling you missed the part where you are responsible for making sure your partner is able to consent, and if they are not, you do not have sex with them. I donât care how many times she said yes and I donât care if sheâs begging for it. If she is too drunk that she canât walk, speak, or function properly, do not have sex with her. She cannot consent.
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u/EquivalentDetail5242 5d ago
There are decent people out there that do not struggle with this concept. If you really cannot figure out when you can and cannot stick your dick in someone, just donât touch anybody.
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u/vienibenmio 5d ago
Consent either is given or not given at the time of the incident. Someone isn't "deciding" that they didn't consent the day after, they are realizing that they didn't consent. I would say the same for men (and i have worked with male survivors with female perpetrators, who also blamed themselves)
I recognize that this all makes it difficult for the legal system to find evidence. But it doesn't mean the woman is lying
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u/TheTwoAndOnly54 2d ago
I just realized my ex raped me the night of my birthday 2 years ago. I didnt just decide it, i realized it!!!
We need justice for real victims, not Lucy Craig.
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u/MichelangeloCzech 5d ago
The biggest problem here is that she very clearly said no to any butt stuff. If she was clearly able to remove specific consents, why was she incapable of removing general consent and just end the encounter when when didn't feel like doing it anymore?
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u/Workfh 5d ago
I donât think itâs that hard to understand.
They isolated her and continued to push the boundaries for their gain. At first it is Man A and Man B. Maybe she had thought it was just going to be A but he proposed B join in - might be a bit naughty and might be fun, and she trusts this guy right?
All of a sudden Man C comes in. Sheâs like well what is this. They say itâs ok. Man B just needs a break, and you are already having sex with Man A, so C is just going to come on for a bit. Remember how much you trust Man A? Sheâs naked and all three men are friends who live in together. Then Man A is like I also need a break, but you are already having sex with Man C so can Man D join as well? Itâs not new, you already agreed to a lot of this stuff. Then Man A is like in ready to be back, can I join with C and D? That request is more different than the rest and a break from what was already consented to.
Itâs surprising considering then immense peer pressure that must have been going on in that room as a naked woman surrounded by men who are close friends and live together that she could say no to something. But of course once they got her to agree to two men, they could just pressure to change out the men.
I wouldnât be surprised if some of those men have been sexually harassed and pressured into group sex when they didnât want to by their friends.
But this is the MO, you isolate your victim, you get them to agree to small changes and push the limits with peer pressure, with alcohol and drugs and more peer pressure. You then use moments when the person you are raping was able to push back as evidence while you continue to pressure them to accept more. Then you try to control the narrative.
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u/MichelangeloCzech 4d ago
The first two guys were throwing up and passing put constantly. They weren't peer pressuring her to do shit.
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u/monaforever 5d ago
You use common sense. Drunk people fucking are bound to make occasional mistakes, but if you use common sense then you should be fairly safe from being accused of assault. If you're hooking up with someone, don't invite other random people to join because the person you're with didn't agree to that when they agreed to fuck you. If you get invited to an impromptu gang bang use your head and think about the situation. How fucked up the girl is. How many men are there and the vulnerable position she's in and how that might affect her state of mind.
Imagine you're drunk as fuck, high on sedatives, naked, in a room full of men twice your size who were told they could fuck you. Imagine how vulnerable you would feel. You don't know what these guys are capable of and you're not in any sort of position to fight. It's entirely possible that if she had fought (if she was even capable on all the ketamine), all of those guys would have respected that and left. But she'd have no idea if that's how it would go or if it would get worse for her. None of those men used common sense. None of them put themselves in her shoes and thought about why they were able to fuck this half conscious woman. None of them thought "hmm I wonder if the only reason she's not fighting me right now is because she's the only woman, naked, in a room full of men, and is scared."
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u/monaforever 5d ago
All this "consider her mental state" will lead to the degradation of women's rights.
Lol ok.
how are you people not putting together i mean legally?
The person you responded to already answered that. See below.
I recognize that this all makes it difficult for the legal system to find evidence. But it doesn't mean the woman is lying.
Cases like this can't always get convictions, but as the person you responded to says, that doesn't mean the woman is lying. That doesn't mean the men did nothing wrong. And even though you might be able to do something like this and get away with it, doesn't mean you're not a peice of shit person. So if you're afraid of being accused of something, or confused about what consent is, then use your common sense and don't do fucked up shit even if you know you aren't likely to be convicted for it.
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u/elcunito 5d ago
Donât fuck people when theyâre in a k-hole, is that unclear to you? Are you still confused?
The problem with talking about rape is that so many men are more fixated on the extremely slim possibility that theyâll be falsely accused of rape than they are with actual sexual assault that happens all the time, to most women. Just stop fucking people when theyâre too drunk to make a choice and youâll be fine my dude.
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago edited 5d ago
A little angry about being questioned on defining what is rape arnt we? Well she consented to the first two then. And its the Cornell 5.
Edit: just realized the first two encouraged the other frat boys to rape. Back to 7.
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u/elcunito 5d ago
Yeah itâs crazy how she had consensual sex twice but then didnât like it the time she was drugged and gang raped I mean come on where is the line?! How are we as men supposed to know??
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u/Knot-kraftwerk 5d ago
Yeah, why would women be filled with blinding rage about this stuff. Its not like every single women is a survivor or knows and loves one. You're just asking questions about a deeply painful thing that men have be blithely doing to women for centuries without consequences. No reason to get angry about questions that prop up rape culture and male entitlement. Women should stop being so emotional about everythingÂ
/s, in case you couldn't tell. You are why they chose the bear
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago
âYoure just asking questions about a painful thing we want men to be educated on but we refuse to talk about if we dont like the question â yeah thats right. And if you arnt brave enough to do it then you sure as hell arnt brave enough to choose a bear. And thats how this cycle has continued for centuries.
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u/Knot-kraftwerk 5d ago
Dude, calm down. Why are you getting so upset? Maybe youre too hysterical to talk about this right now. /s
I was commenting on your question about why people get angry. That is not the same as saying your initial questions aren't important.Â
The issue is dismissing the very reasonable anger is counter productive and also kind of a  dick move.
You're not as smart as you think you you are.
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago edited 5d ago
đ
âMaybe youre too hysterical to talk about thisâ
âThe issue is dismissingâ
Youve hollowed out feminism with cool internet trolling.
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u/vienibenmio 5d ago
No, they aren't deciding. They are realizing as they process what happened.
You stop that from occurring by using the affirmative consent model. If it really isn't clear, then don't proceed.
They weren't too intoxicated to offer her up to the group chat
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago
And she wasnt too intoxicated to make her way to the frat house. You see the carousel here?
Also she used the affirmative consent model. You are still expecting a drunk male be able to decipher a yes as a no, while allowing a drunk woman to say yes and mean no. It makes zero sense.
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u/vienibenmio 5d ago
She likely was able to and did consent at that time. She consented to the threesome. I'm talking about what happened later in the night
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago
Oh ok. I think were agreeing then just hard to decipher tone through text. Threesome wasnt rape. The passed out was rape. Which makes it the Cornell 5 doesnt it?
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u/vienibenmio 5d ago
No, because iirc those 2 were heavily involved in the group chat. I know Newell was
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago
Oh I see they encouraged the other frat boys to rape. Back to 7.
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u/Zealousideal_Bar6871 5d ago
Actually there was no sex that occurred after a "passed out" status. She consented at the time to all the sexual events. Both the first and the 2nd threesome happened during her being awake.
There was only 4 men that had sex with her. The other three snorted K off her body reportedly with her consent as well.
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u/tbombs23 5d ago
Actually one guy didn't do any K, Scott. He submitted a hair follicle drug test as proof. He's the one who came in to check on her and asked if she was good, she said yes, and he left after 5 min.
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago
Im not so sure about all that as fact. From my research she consented to the first threesome only. She was most definitely raped.
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u/Emz423 5d ago
When youâre ready to understand the trauma response to sexual assault, come back to the subject.
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u/Emz423 5d ago
The discussion requires an unbiased listener.
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5d ago edited 5d ago
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u/Emz423 5d ago edited 5d ago
If you really want to know, read the parent comment again, or type into Google: âtrauma and sexual assault,â or ârape and trauma,â or âeffects of rape on a survivor.â Or any combination.
But if you want to prove everybody wrong, or argue about it, because you ultimately support rapists, then keep it up - and expect downvotes.
ETA: I can answer your question about drunkenness, however. Donât have sex if youâre drunk or if your sex partner seems drunk. Only have sex when you can have a conscious conversation with your sex partner. Problem solved.
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago
Person on the internet, I have the thing youâre telling me to google! You are calling me a rape supporter because im asking questions on reddit you donât like?
I agree personally with your drunk assessment, but how do we deal legally with people who get drunk and this happens? Thatâs the question.
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u/TruthHertz93 5d ago
I don't understand this.
How can he claim "it got out of hand" man?
I've had multiple women I've brought back fall asleep (some I'm guessing pretending cuz they didn't wanna do anything or didn't feel comfortable) do you know what I did?
Covered em with a blanket and passed out meself lol
It doesn't even occur to me to have sex.
I just don't get it.
They must know it's rape
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u/spicy_feather 5d ago
They do and that's why they do it. They're sick and into that. They don't look at their victims like people.
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u/No_Instance4233 5d ago
That's why I've never jived with the counter message to "teach your daughters to be safe" which is "teach your sons not to rape".
I understand the sentiment, but they are missing the part where rapists KNOW its wrong and they just don't CARE. You can't teach them not to when they are already fundamentally broken and a danger to society.
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u/KindCompetence 5d ago
I think there is space for teaching everyone about affirmative consent, and starting with children.
Teaching kids to ask before they put their hands on their friends, and asking them before you put your hands on them. Letting them live with the experience of having their bodily autonomy respected by the people who love them. Expecting them to respect the bodily autonomy of other people.
âDid you check that Jane likes wrestling with you?â
âDo you want a hug, high five, or a wave?âStart when theyâre little.
But I also think sex Ed should include at least the introduction of the idea that sex should be enjoyable for everyone involved, and if someone is not having fun, itâs time to back it off. Along with the part about diseases and condoms and pregnancy.
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u/FlamingDragonfruit 5d ago
We also need to raise kids to understand that all people deserve to be treated with kindness and respect: not just your friends, or people who look like you, but EVERYONE. People who have been taught empathy are far less likely to hurt and abuse others.
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u/Grazer46 5d ago
I work in the correctional system here in Norway, and I was honestly suprised when I learned how many sex offenders don't actually realise what they're doing is wrong. There are those like the Cornell case who know it's wrong and still do it. But there is also truth in teaching your sons not to rape.
A big part of our rehabilitation of sex offenders is teaching them about proper consent etc. And it's effective too, seeing as sex offenders have the lowest rate of reoffending in Norway.
Just to state the obvious: I still think it's a vile act by vile people. Nowhere do we take it seriously enough, and I really have no sympathy for those who do it
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u/TheGreatZephyr 5d ago
Everyone knows rape isnt allowed, its like telling people hey you cant murder. Murderers know they cant, but do anyway. Same goes with rape.
You can make sure everyone knows and even give it the death penalty and there will still be psychopaths who dont care and do it anyway. Sad.
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago
I wish more women like you would speak up. This teach your son not to rape trend is very creepy. I saw moms reposting on instagram âim not worried about my son being gay, im worried about him being a rapist.â Wtf is happening to society? These are BABIES!
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u/udderlyfun2u 4d ago
In a large survey trying to understand the criminal mind, they asked the question, 'If you had zero accountability and no consequences, would you comit rape?' Over 70% of the men answered 'YES'.
1 in 6 men will comit sexual assault of some kind on a woman in their life. 1 in 3 women will experience it. How many friends do you have? Are you the one in six? Would you say something to the one in six if he was in your group?
Until it is 'NO MAN', it is ALL MEN!
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u/listenyall 5d ago
Research shows they 100% know it's rape, they just prioritize other things over not being a rapist
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u/Affectionate_Fun7991 5d ago
Something that I don't really see others point out but is confusing to me is text message itself. How is someone making offers to the other frat boys and why that is not immediately coming off as problematic to everyone. How can someone offer access to another persons body in advance? That's a very clear consent issue right away. That seems like evidence at the very least that the boys in question don't understand consent. They're completely innocent but offering up a body that is not their own in a chat? That's not something you can do.
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u/FlamingDragonfruit 5d ago
They do understand it. It just doesn't mean anything to them. From what's been released as of now, it sounds like there was a conspiracy to rape, with plans in advance to incapacitate and use this girl.
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u/_Ello_Love_ 5d ago
Thank you for doing the right thing. I hate that we live in a world where I feel a need to thank you for that, but I will anyway because many in our society seem to think these incidents are just fine and the girls fault for "regretting". When your story is what should have happened. From a girl raped in college and a guy stepped in, made sure I was ok, and tucked me safely away and watched the door.. I just cannot be more grateful for the people who choose to do what's right.
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u/Alyss_Black13 5d ago
Unfortunately, I've heard the story so much from the other side. When I was in college riding the campus bus, women would laugh off being black out drunk or high and not being able to move during "sex." They didnt see anything wrong with the person they were with, who they just met and had no prior relationship, taking advantage. It ruins sex for everyone when people dont understand sane, safe consent :(
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago
It also ruins it when one gender puts all accountability on the other. One gender has dynamic standards out on them, one has static. Most of these people hate that pointed out.
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u/Artistic_Rice_9019 5d ago
I had a male friend who was raped. He told the woman in question no. He knew she had an STD, so very firm no. She got him drunk to the point he browned out but I guess still had enough circulation for the act and barely remembers her on top of him. He went to the doctors and got antibiotics the next day. Never reported it.
To answer your question - men do get raped. They mostly don't report it.
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u/auscientist 5d ago
Men are more likely to be a victim of rape than a false accusation of rape. They are also more likely to be raped by a man than they are by a woman.
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u/Alyss_Black13 5d ago
Yes, one gender of rapists hates having to account for dynamics :/ I'm quite sure my point was that there are unfortunately a large number of women who participate in non consensual sex and then talk about it like it was an accident. Dont have sex with people who cant move....man on man, women on women, ect.
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u/Most_Deer_3890 5d ago
Well that ones easily considered rape. Passed out, dont have sex. But jane doe said in 2024 if she was comfortable with the first 2 encounters "Yeah, as much as I can be because, again, I was super drunk when I got there ... But I was pretty OK with all of this."
So when a drunk person is too drunk to consent, the other drunk person should be capable of deciphering yes as not consent?
I think we all agree rape occurred after she passed out.
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u/mangababe 5d ago
It's almost as if one gender is statistically responsible for 90% of sexual assaults and therefore are those actually at fault and in need of being held accountable.
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u/TheSixthVisitor 4d ago
Because you're actually a decent person. These guys 100% knew it's rape. They don't care and for a lot of them, that's exactly what they're into. Heck, for a lot of guys, it's not even the question of "it felt good so I kept going," it's "the control I have over somebody who can't stop me is better than any drug."
Unfortunately, a lot of people are like this, even those who don't rape others. Lots of people get their kicks from simply taking advantage of others or having a position of authority over somebody else, even if it's tiniest thing.
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u/Apprehensive-Sign930 5d ago
Things can get out of hand morally while still not being illegal. A threesome turning into an 8 person orgy that is consensual still sound like something that âgot out of handâ. Hope this helps.
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u/BananasPineapple05 5d ago
People acting like her attempts to "take control" or to "normalize" what was happening to her or what had happened to her means that she consented. Like we haven't seen this happen over and over and over again in past cases. Like we don't know that it's a normal way to cope pyschologically with the trauma.
I am exhausted that it keeps happening and people keep acting like we don't understand the parameters of the experience. And I'm nowhere near the person it happened to this time or any other time in the past. Thinking about what it must be like for those people depresses me.
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u/Majestic_Artichoke55 5d ago
Oh this is 100% accurate. She is trying make it okay.
Women are very strong we donât just break down like men expect. We are socialized to blame ourselves.
Raping an unconscious woman is wrong, no means no.
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u/innovativesolsoh 5d ago
And a lack of a âyesâ is also a no.
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u/TrickyInteraction778 5d ago
And consent can be rescinded at any time, and just because you consent to one sexual act DOES NOT give consent for every other sexual act occurring.
Iâll give an example: if I consent to having sexual intercourse with one man, and then during sex that man invites his roommate in to join, I did not consent to that.
Sex is not an âitâs better to ask forgiveness than permissionâ situation.-2
u/Careless-Run-4692 5d ago
Why do you try so hard to twist and mangle the concept of human agency such that you are never responsible for your actions, but at the same time everyone else is hyper-responsible for theirs.
It's irrational, and at the end of the day will set back whatever cause you think you're working towards.
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u/innovativesolsoh 4d ago
Let me reframe the situation in a more digestible way.
If I ask you for a loan, if you say âyesâ, then itâs reasonable for me to expect it.
If I ask you for a loan and you say ânoâ, then itâs reasonable for you to expect me to understand that you wonât be giving me that loan.
If I ask you for a loan and you donât answer, it is still unreasonable for me to expect that I will receive that loan.
This is a basic societal norm, it is not âmurkierâ because it involves sex.
Yes means yes, no means no, and the absence of a yes will never mean yes.
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u/Careless-Run-4692 4d ago
It's not more digestible. It's weak analogy which still misses the point. Agreement to participate (or consent) does not begin and end with verbalization. Furthermore, a contract is not necessary for every human interaction, nor should it be.
If I ask you for a loan, and you say nothing, but you hand me $200 -- has a loan been made or not? Better yet let's say I ask for a grant with no intention of repayment. And you hand me $200. If we go to court, would a court rightly believe that I stole that $200 from you? What if I ask you, and you put that $200 on the desk next to me instead of in my hand. If I take that money, would it then be stealing?
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u/innovativesolsoh 4d ago
Absolutely lacks realism and reeks of âgotchaâ logic.
Verbalization is required for clear boundaries of any exchange. We are not a mind reading species, last I checked.
While it is physically possible to transact that way, itâs weird and unnatural to just wordlessly hand someone money and expect it to be clear about the details of the transaction.
It is asinine to suggest it would be a complete transaction without terms and conditions set, even loose ones. It is the reason contracts exist at all. It is not less of a contract because itâs a social contract.
Also, if you have no context why someone elseâs money is on your nightstand and you take it, then itâs a lot closer to theft than your analogy intends. It is something that you know is not yours to take except you decide you are entitled to it because it is available to you.
Anyone in their right mind exchanging money without clear communication and boundaries is at best maliciously opportunistic, at worst exploitative.
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u/SnooEagles4121 5d ago
This stuff used to baffle me but then I remembered that Republicans overturned Roe and nobody cared. Not even white women could be bothered to hold them accountable for taking away their bodily autonomy. Trump even bragged about it. Nobody cared.
Make it make sense.
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u/tbombs23 5d ago
Yeah like 53% of white women voted for him! Crazy!
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u/pm_me_ur_mustelids 4d ago
As part of the 47%, this is indeed a travesty. And yet, if "didn't vote" was a candidate, that's who would have won the election, by a lot.
I know plenty of lefty voters who sat out the presidential election because they were sick of the Democrats, especially on Gaza.
We should certainly blame the people who voted for this administration, but a lot of the blame should be placed on those who didn't vote, or who refuse to vote strategically.
Now is a good time to talk to any friends who may be considering sitting the next election out.
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u/OpinionNo192 5d ago
Itâs because they also successfully voted for abortion measures in their states at the same time. Arizona, Missouri, Montana, and Nevada each did this. A few Republican states also passed ballot measures in the last decade.
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u/SnooEagles4121 5d ago
Thatâs not what Iâm talking about. Those were done in response. Iâm talking about holding the people who took it away responsible. Republicans get away with this shit all the time. Everyone just blames Democrats for not fixing things quickly enough.
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u/mangababe 5d ago
This case has really highlighted to me that not enough people understand the difference between consent and compliance. One is agreeing to something, the other is obeying/ going along with something to avoid a negative outcome.
A woman complying during a gang rape doesn't mean she consented, it means she was outnumbered, drugged, and unable to do anything about it, so she did damage control.
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u/orchidloom 5d ago
âFawningâ is a common trauma response. To fawn means to go along with it and try to appease the abuser/rapist. Itâs wired into us to help keep us alive when fighting or fleeing are not options.
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u/Cute_Macaroon_4488 5d ago
Yep. There are people that would argue till theyâre blue in the face that will say âbut they left when she said no!â or respected some kind of âstopâ not realizing (hoping thatâs the case) that waiting for a no is not consent. You need a yes. No ânoâ isnât nearly good enough.
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u/SnippetySnappety 4d ago
that's why "enthusiastic" is in front of consent in a lot of teaching on this.
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u/Straight-Broccoli245 5d ago
When will people understand that the abusers are our families, our friends, our pastors, our mentors our neighbors. They hide in the people we seek approval of and find position in being close to that how they get away w it.
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u/Swimming-Dot9120 5d ago
Wait till they find out that some women are actually married to their rapists. Itâs incredibly common for woman to talk with their attacker after the fact, because more often than not, it is someone they know
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u/TrickyInteraction778 5d ago
Marital rape was not illegal until 1993.
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u/void-spartan 5d ago
A man couldnât even be legally raped by a woman in America until 2012
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u/llamadramalover 5d ago
In many states itâs not rape to have sex with an unconscious person if that person is unconscious from drinking. A rapist can be caught in the act with a totally passed out non-consenting person and it is not rape.
Rapists right to finish is also a really cool loophole that says a victim does not have the right to withdraw consent. Someone can start beating feh shit out of the person theyâre having sex with and their now victim has zero right to tell them to stop. They can of course be charged with assault but donât worry itâs not rape. The rights of the rapist are far more important than the rights of the victim.
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u/tbombs23 5d ago
Yeah true, but men are also married to their rapists and are even less likely to report it
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u/Swimming-Dot9120 5d ago
Okay..Is this supposed to take something away from the validity of my statement? Itâs all a consequence of how our society has been conditioned to blame the victim instead of the attacker
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u/Fun_Neat1672 5d ago
Your statement would make a lot more sense with an âandâ instead of a âbutâ
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u/FailAccomplished5238 5d ago
Because other men mock, shame, and refuse to believe them when they report it, just like they do the women who come forward.
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u/llamadramalover 5d ago
So make a whole entire post discussing and bringing attention to exactly that instead of this.
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u/Equivalent_Hat_7220 5d ago
Iâve also consoled a man after he assaulted me and I brought it up âwell now youâre making me feel badâ
UGH.
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u/llamadramalover 5d ago
The ânow youâre making me feel badâ enrages me. I hate that manipulative bullshit in every form. âOh so you think Iâm a badâŠ..â Iâm so tired of it that I answer âyes you areâ and âyou should feel like shitâ. Iâm so done with the damn deflection to avoid responsibility. They know exactly what they are doing.
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u/IndividualAd4459 5d ago
I had been dating this guy for a month when he SAâed me. I didnât know what to do afterwards so we kept dating and he always pushed my boundaries and made me feel small and guilty if I told him no.
It took me years to be able to stay calm with a man coming up behind me who wasnât my dad or allowing another man to put his hands on my neck without me hyperventilating. I still will get flashbacks even with years of therapy that will send me to go hide somewhere. My husband has to gently talk me down because the first time he tried to touch me after I nearly took out an eye on accident.
I have only told one person in my life that I was SAâed. I still struggle to accept the title of survivor.
After all. I dated this guy for months. What was wrong with me? I try not to be angry at past me. She didnât know what to say. She felt too ugly to be able to be victimized like that. She made excuses because she didnât know how to cope. I try to be kind to my past self. But then new stories like this come along and the nightmares come back and I wonder if Iâll ever fully heal.
I hope everyone is able to heal and live a full life.
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u/drawingOnClouds 5d ago edited 5d ago
If a man passed out in a room full of women, he'd wake up with a blanket and a glass of water beside him.
Just saying.
Edit: Y'all, please be for real. Nowhere am I stating that men cannot be victims of SA. I am making a reference to the Cornell Seven.
Edit 2: not the men in the comments fighting am imaginary strawman and still losing. You just don't want to admit that women ARE safer to be around.
I'll go back and have fun in my room full of women while y'all can pretend that female gang rapes are just as common as male ones.
Have fun debating anything except the one thing actually being said
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u/Glittering_Meet3206 5d ago
the replies to you are so weird. most women would be terrified falling asleep in a room full of men. most men falling asleep in a room full of women would not think twice about it.
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u/Artistic_Rice_9019 5d ago
I know men who were raped after getting drunk.
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u/drawingOnClouds 5d ago
That's horrible, I hope they got justice and are doing alright
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u/Artistic_Rice_9019 5d ago
They didn't report it at all. Men seldom do.
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u/Capable_Anything_726 5d ago
People, in general, feel a lot of shame after assault. I didnât want anyone to know what happened to me. I was a girl, and in school, they told us if you werenât a virgin you were âchewed up gumâ and no one would want you.
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u/Artistic_Rice_9019 5d ago
That's awful. I only came forward when someone else was victimized, and he used my police report to smear me to our mutual friends.
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u/Capable_Anything_726 5d ago
Why didnât you press charges?
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u/Artistic_Rice_9019 5d ago
The DA elected not to do so. The other girl was underaged. Statutory rape doesn't require a jury to believe she didn't consent. He got a diversionary agreement.
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u/Colonist25 5d ago
as a man - this.
i've had friends fall asleep on my couch - who wake up to water, pain meds and a blanket;
i've taken friends to their home when they were skunkily drunk - and made sure they got inside their house.at no point in this life am i tempted to try a thing with a person that can't have overwhelming enthousiastic consent.
there is never an excuse for doing anything different.
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u/Mammoth-Gas-7738 5d ago
Man here just commenting what I think is obvious: men can experience sexual violence and it is very serious. Women can experience sexual violence and it is very serious. If you are a woman, you are far more likely to experience sexual violence than if you are a man.
Stay with me here⊠pointing to statistics does not undermine individual male experiences. Statistics do not do this because, by their nature, they are about experiences in the aggregate and explicitly allow us to make hypotheses, observations, and draw conclusions. If you feel that an argument about statistics, as above, undermines individual experiences, please calm the fuck down
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u/throw7661 5d ago
Respectfully, this is incredibly offensive and a big part of when men don't come forward after they are raped.
Research from organizations like the National Sexual Violence Resource Center (NSVRC) and the CDC indicates that roughly 1 in 6 men experience some form of sexual violence in their lifetime, and about 1 in 33 American men experience attempted or completed rape
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u/drawingOnClouds 5d ago
I never said men can't be raped. Sexual acts should always happen with full consent from everyone involved, I think this goes without saying.
But if I had to chose a room I'd have to pass out in, I'd 100% always pick the one full of women. Wouldn't you?
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u/Wonderful-Self-541 5d ago
I would totally love to pass out in a room full of women these guys are tripping.
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u/throw7661 5d ago
You said:
If a man passed out in a room full of women, he'd wake up with a blanket and a glass of water beside him.
Which is disingenuous, especially if you acknowledge that men can be raped by women.
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u/drawingOnClouds 5d ago
You realise I'm talking about this specific scenario, right? A room full of men vs a room full of women?
Most SA happen with person close to you, often a relative or partner. Absolutely tragic no matter the gender. But I am in fact talking about a scenario like Cornell.
I know you probably don't mean it like that, but to me it feels like you are making a strawman argument.
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u/Glittering_Meet3206 5d ago
IS it common for men to be the victims of female only orgies?
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u/throw7661 5d ago
'Common' is an entirely subjective metric and is irrelevant to my position.
Saying that women wouldn't take advantage of a passed out man ignores the fact that women sometimes do.
In several multi-defendant sexual assault cases (such as organized trafficking and assault rings), female co-defendants have been convicted for intentionally administering incapacitating substances (like ketamine, GHB, or heavy sedatives) to male victims to prevent resistance during multi-person sexual abuse.
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u/dunemi 5d ago
Except that 75-87% of men who are raped were raped by men. So, still much safer with women.
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u/tbombs23 5d ago
That's including prison rape statistics, which will heavily skew the data
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u/drawingOnClouds 5d ago
How so?
I'd assume it includes both male and female prison data, and SA is SA no matter where it happens. I dont think this would actually skew the data
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u/Protoavis 5d ago
because the prison population for men in the USA is 90% (at a minimum) of the prison population. If the majority of the 75-87% stat is prison based and the vast majority of the prison population is male..it's no longer and apples to apples comparison. You'd need to start extrapolating the data quite heavily from the significantly lower female prison population to make a relevant comparison.
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u/Fun_Neat1672 5d ago
Can you make a definitive list of which rapes count so we can start going through the data and get an accurate statistic
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u/CalmCoolBliss 5d ago
That 1 in 33 number is using the CDC definition of rape that says if, for instance, a woman puts a gun to a man's head and says, "Have sex with me or I'll kill you." That's NOT rape. It would be rape if a man did that to a woman but it's not rape if a woman does that to a man.
You see under their definition it's only rape if the victim is being penetrated. If the perpetrator is the one being penetrated then it goes down under "made to penetrate" instead. This is not considered part of the rape category of crimes, it's instead part of the "other victimization" category along with things like catcalling.
The CDC's typically reports roughly equal numbers of women raped and men "made to penetrate" per year and 80% of men who're raped have female perpetrators.
You can read more about it here: The hidden epidemic of men raped by women or here: On the sexual assault of men
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u/Popular_Brief335 3d ago
Itâs rare to see someone sharing information on male victims thatâs so widely misunderstood. Nice job.
May we get justice for all victimsÂ
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u/Popular_Brief335 3d ago
Rape is a legal issue with the research. It mostly men on men. And men are more often victims of forced to penetrate where the perpetrators are like 80% womenÂ
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u/musclenugget92 4d ago
Jesus christ, I STG the internet pretends like women are harmless fairies and all they do is sprinkle pixie dust and sunshine.
I was cornered and molested by two female adult coworkers.
I was pinned down in grade school and kissed and groped by two older girls at daycare.
none of this went reported, because as a man who could easily over power the women, what am I supposed to say? Why didn't I throw them off me? If I did that I would be catching charges. If I get angry and yell they tell me to calm down and stop overreating and I'm "not in danger"
As a child, I'm supposed to like girls attention and it's supposed to be cool. We pretend like only women get negative sexual attention when they're young, but as a child my own fucking Aunt told me if I was a little older she would be with me. I was like 7 years old.
Much of the deviant stuff that happens to men goes either unreported or is handwaived. Same goes for women, but let's stop pretending like women aren't exactly as predatory as men are.
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u/One_grandwizard_2790 5d ago
I would not be able to fall asleep in a room full of women. I'd be terrified. I'd be extremely afraid that they falsely accuse me, rape me, steal from me or worse.
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u/Spiritual_Face 5d ago
TBH I started questioning her a bit bc I kept reading âoh, she said it was fineâ then I remembered it took 2-3 weeks to report my SA and I was like OH right - when something traumatic happens no matter what kind of trauma you donât just see it clearly and process it in a nice, neat way that everyone can recognize.
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u/Different_Welcome_46 5d ago edited 5d ago
In high school, i was drugged and raped by one of my classmates at my own house while my parents were out of town. Not recognizing that the disorientation and foggy evening was the result of having been drugged - outside the hazy memory of them leading me to my childhood bed there was no recollection of the events. I only recall that he kindly took the garbage with him when he left the next morning after repeatedly kissing me.
They never spoke to me again and i never spoke of it again - feeling in many ways rejeceted rather than exploited.
Ive thrown out my yearbooks and generally avoid looking back or casting judgement on the peers that could have intervened.
The point is -- it is intellectually difficult to come to terms with rape and what has occured to your body... like, it isnt a natural leap. The act itself... baffling in its lack of regard for the victim, for me... its really difficult to understand.
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u/BuffyTheSlayer 5d ago
I really think we need to stop saying "my rapist" or "her rapist". It gives the rapist secondary ownership of the event. We should just say "the rapist". Just my opinion.Â
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u/River_Inner 4d ago
I was black out drunk when I had sex with a friend that I had never, ever considered sleeping with prior. We were at a party, I donât remember the encounter, I put my Jean shorts on inside out afterwards and didnât even take my tampon out. That night I walked home through a bad part of town, didnât take my diabetes medication, and lost my wallet.
The next day I texted different people at the party trying to figure out what had happened. I texted him and asked âdid we kiss?â he apologized and said he had no idea I had been that drunk. He told me I seemed fine. I was crying and told him it wasnât his fault.
I later engaged with him sexually while sober a few timesâit felt like shit; I felt completely lost. I have no idea why I did this, and to this day itâs a very strange upsetting feeling. To this day I donât use the r word to describe what happened, but I know it was wrong.
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u/ArgueLater 5d ago
I really wish I knew what these sort of things look like. The description of her internal experience makes it sound like the most obvious thing ever. But what was the external expression? Was she pretending to like it? Did her body do the defense mechanism of lubricating?
Like... if internally she's fawning, but externally she's wet and whimpering, then I can see how things got out of hand.
âą
u/Timbucktwo1230 đ« Mod âïž 5d ago