During the Cold War, did the UK continue recognizing noble titles from countries like Hungary that had abolished hereditary nobility under communism?

[u/PablomentFanquedelic]

I ask because I'm writing a backstory with one villain being a fascist noblewoman who cut a deal with the Allies after WW2 and moved to the Commonwealth, and I'm wondering if she would've kept her titles in her new country or if she'd have to, like, marry a British nobleman for that.

[u/bcoder001]

Titles mean nothing unless you have wealth. She would've kept her title, but she would not be able to expect any special treatment. Maybe an easier access to lower rungs of British nobility, but that's all.

[u/PablomentFanquedelic → u/bcoder001]

Ah, thanks.

I know there's a trope of nobility marrying nouveau riche partners to replenish their funds in exchange for the partner getting a noble title. Would that have applied even if the noblewoman's title was no longer relevant in her country of origin but she married a commoner from a country that still had its own nobility?

[u/bcoder001 → u/PablomentFanquedelic]

I haven't studied this subject extensively, but European nobility tend to recognise titles passed on their children by their fathers. When a noble woman marries a commoner, the title would expire, I think. You need to do research on Hungarian nobility and British nobility. There used to be a time when the American "Bucaneers" (daughters of rich amerian families) would come to Britain to marry skint nobility to get a title in exchange for paying off their debts, but it's less common these days.

[u/sandboxmatt]

For example, at funerals the monarchy of Greece was given marching order of precidence with other royals and based on reign seniority as royals would. Diplomatically at a civil government level, no. Post world war 2 we didnt have situations like the recognized government in exile of Norway/Yugo etc reigning from England.

[u/Boboshady]

Broadly, no. Prior to 1932 the Monarch could make some exceptions, but after that date no foreign titles are officially recognised and usable in the UK. So if you are, or were, a Lord or Lady in Hungary, you never would be in the UK anyway, so it having been abolished under communism wouldn't have mattered.

Note, I only googled this answer because I wasn't sure of what I suspected I knew (and tbh it also seemed like the sort of thing one could figure out quite easily from a google search anyway), but I did then double check the sources:

https://debretts.com/directories/other-titles-2/foreign-titles/

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/titles-included-in-passports/titles-accessible

[u/Breifne21 → u/Boboshady]

How does that work with Irish titles? 

For example, "Lord Lucan" or the "Duke of Leinster" refer to titles in a foreign country.

[u/Boboshady → u/Breifne21]

Both of those titles are well established, stretching back centuries so have established legal status in the UK, basically.

Worth pointing out too that foreign titles don't just cease to exist in the UK, it's just that we don't officially recognise them, and don't afford them any of the benefits they might otherwise extend to the holder. Any UK citizen who holds a foreign title does so only for the bragging rights in the UK, they are not nobility because of it. A foreign national can still use their title, but it is purely a courtesy for the UK to use it to refer to them - a Lord in France is not a Lord in the UK, they are a French Lord on holiday...kind of thing.

[u/Breifne21 → u/Boboshady]

It's a bit weird but these things always are. 

Thanks for explaining. 

[u/neilm1000 → u/Breifne21]

They're granted by the Crown so they get around it that way.

[u/Breifne21 → u/neilm1000]

Could you explain that a little? I don't understand. 

[u/neilm1000 → u/Breifne21]

Most of the people with those titles aren't actually Irish so it doesn't matter. However, to answer your question: they were granted titles by the Crown when the Peerage of Ireland was a thing (and the other Peerages, some of them have Irish titles in) and the rule is 'granted by the Crown, recognised by the Crown.' There are several titles that have foreign place names in.

[u/BeanoMc2000 → u/neilm1000]

There is a tradition of former military getting titles named after war or battle they are associated with. Examples include Viscount Montgomery of El Alemein, Earl Kitchener of Khartoum and Earl Nelson of Travalgar. In such cases they also get a subsidiary title named for somewhere in UK or Ireland.

[u/neilm1000 → u/BeanoMc2000]

The Nelson crest is particularly good, featuring a palm tree.

[u/pablohacker2 → u/Breifne21]

Ireland is strange in UK law...like its legally not "foreign" just an independent country. So n thay sense they are not foreign titles.

[u/Background-Bid-8149]

money would be more recognised than a title from another country

[u/Ancient-Cow-1038]

“Recognise” is putting it a little strongly; in general, if someone wants to call themselves “Le Comte De Wherever”, it’s generally been considered good manners to let them do it.

That title doesn’t actually confer any specific privileges. If your character wanted to call herself Grógnő Such-and-such, nobody in post-war Britain /commonwealth would probably have told her she couldn’t do that, with the possibility of some of the more vocal communist party members in those countries (and they were much more vocal then than they are today). But neither would she necessarily have had entree to court or other circles, particularly if she was known for being a facist during the war.

[u/Ancient-Cow-1038 → u/Ancient-Cow-1038]

Plus Hungary abolished all its orders of nobility in (?)1948 so the title would have been a courtesy only.

[u/neilm1000]

The UK stopped recognising foreign titles in 1932 when the system to apply for recognition was scrapped.

Where in the Commonwealth did your character move to, u/PablomentFanquedelic?

[u/Aedamer]

There's a somewhat well-known Russian-British author who still calls himself Count Nikolai Tolstoy. Not sure if this is legally recognised, however.

[u/AdministrativeShip2]

Depends.

A foreign noble title would be recognised. And depending on family connections like being someone's cousin and having money would count (heh) a lot.

A Boyaress with noble titles might not get invited to the best parties, and as a Lady might need a loyal retainer to handle her business dealings indirectly. But she would still be a Boyaress even without land, privilege or money.

After the communist state collapsed former nobles were given some cash restitution for the loss of their properties under the regime.

[u/ljofa]

Communist leaders during the Cold War, did publicly use ‘your majesty’ and ‘ma’am’ to address the Queen despite expectations to the contrary. I think it’s a protocol thing. With defunct titles, depends if you want to keep them on side. And during the Cold War, former nobles might have been someone to potentially rally around in terms of resistance to the regime.

[u/FrDuddleswell]

Baroness Orczy was known as such until she died in 1947, but nobody would have mistaken her for a peeress of the United Kingdom. Foreign titles might be used in conversation and reference, but they wouldn’t have been thought of as the same as an English equivalent (so if you were an Austrian count (Graf) you wouldn’t be referred to as the Earl of X). What was more pressing in the developments related to foreign titles which have already been discussed was when British subjects were granted titles by foreign sovereigns (although that wouldn’t have made any real difference day to day, except with how you might be styled at court, or any possible diplomatic or precedence issues).
Your villainess might well be referred to by others as The Countess or whatever, but this would be in a spirit of exotica, sending dressmakers’ bills, and booking tables at restaurants.