r/AdviceAnimals • u/PlanetoftheAtheists • 12h ago
From hackers in France turning up temperatures on supermarket refrigerators, to that coffee maker sending out gigabytes of data...
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u/twilightmoons 12h ago
OK for the supermarket fridges...
Many yonks ago, I worked for a company that did the signals for these, for a grocery store chain.
If you have a hundred or more stores, it's actually easier and cheaper in the long run to set up temp alarms and controls remotely for these than try to manage them at each store. The temperature sensors trigger alarms at a central station, where you can then inform the local managers pretty quickly to move product out if needed, and to send a repair tech RIGHT NOW.
If it's reliant on local managers, there is a good case that they can miss it, not call out to a repair person, and lose thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars of products in a matter of hours. No one is checking at 3am if the temp jumps 10 degrees when it shouldn't, right into the danger zone for bacterial growth. The sensors sent a string to an API with the data (API key, location code, fridge code, time/date stamp, temperature, humidity, etc.), that gets logged into the DB for tracking, and anything out of the ordinary gets flagged.
So if the central station gets any alarms, they can dispatch repair, and notify the local managers, no matter the time or day. Don't get a scheduled signal or set of signals from a store? Could be a power or internet outage, call the managers and find out.
Automation helps lower costs in the long run.
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u/DrLove039 12h ago
Oh that makes a lot of sense, but why is it controllable remotely? Why can temperatures or anything else be changed why is it not read only?
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u/twilightmoons 12h ago
Same reason - saves money. Some manager fiddles with it locally, or a disgruntled employee raises the temp before leaving at night, and in the morning you have a pool of melted ice cream and ruined TV dinners.
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u/Mahlegos 5h ago
Given what you explained before, that seems like it could just go into the “send alarm to central station, central station contacts manager for check/correct” bucket.
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u/UnenthusiasticAddict 11h ago
Saves money for the company or the consumer?
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u/twilightmoons 11h ago
Ultimately for both. Cost of the hardware and software is part of overhead, and store margins are pretty tight as they are. Food waste costs are passed onto the consumer in the end.
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u/andyb521740 8h ago
Because the ideal temperature in one space doesn't mean its the correct temperature for all space. The buildings all have micro climates that requirement small adjustments to keep the occupants comfortable.
Likewise being able to remote control a valve I can command a sticky valve that sometimes only moves 5-10% to 100% to unstick it, thus preventing me from rolling a tech. We can also schedule pre cooling and heating of spaces or emergency dump HVAC temps if the system is responding fast enough
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u/ChainBlue 3h ago
This. Walmart was doing it in the 90s. I saw managers get phone calls from Bentonville telling to go close freezer door 17 and the like. HVAC was controlled from Arkansas as well. You could call and say "It's 80F in the store and customers are complaining." and they would say "Our sensors show it is 73F" and they would refuse to adjust anything.
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u/Thopterthallid 12h ago
You'd think they'd be able to stop a hack then.
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u/twilightmoons 11h ago
We had all of our stuff dependent on API keys, ACLs from limited IP ranges, SSL cert verification, etc. Wrong API key? Not getting in. Not from the right IP range, not getting in. SSL cert doesn't match? Not getting in. So much verification so this stuff wouldn't happen. Can't stop Backhoe Bob, or someone kicking out a power cord, but we did what we could.
Some companies might want to do it on the cheap without all of the safeguards. This is the result.
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u/Thopterthallid 11h ago
Most of the "hacks" I imagine are kids with smartphones noticing that the store wifi is entirely unsecured.
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u/KLAM3R0N 10h ago
Na it's Jill in reception clicking on an email she thought was from her manager or IT asking her to reset her password.
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u/andyb521740 8h ago
Depends on which side of the firewall the system is on. If its public facing to the internet they are asking for trouble.
Thesystem we use at my job takes three logins with one 2FA to get into the system soley because remote HVAC systems are gateway for hackers to get into the primary network, its how target was hacked a few years ago
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u/andyb521740 8h ago
Yup, I am the guy who baby sits thousands of air conditioners and refers for a government agency. We are able to troubleshoot and respond to the problem before the site occupants are even aware of the issue.
Critical loads have monitors that wake us up in the middle of the night to prevent 911 or a data center for trippin offline because the AC shit the bed
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u/pushaper 12h ago
I think originally this was part of it but I know a guy who worked for a PoS software company (iirc for beverages) so this is also a way electronically track inventory for restocking. You may have encountered this via a false charge at a hotel mini-bar fridge. Software developers probably found some of this was ways to further make money for their companies.
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u/corprwhs 8h ago
The coffee maker was a terabyte of data.
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u/Sancticide 5h ago edited 5h ago
How does it even have that much data? Did they give it Wireshark and just have it sniff all the Wi-Fi traffic in the house? It makes coffee...
Edit: apparently it was a bug that just flooded the family LAN. Crappy, but still not the worst thing ever. https://www.dexerto.com/entertainment/man-discovers-his-parents-coffee-machine-used-1tb-of-data-in-10-days-3416399/
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u/Danktizzle 12h ago
All I see is an opportunity for an entrepreneur to make dumb (insert product here). Unfortunately i would prolly nail my finger to the workbench or burn holes in my retinas.
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u/SpecialOops 12h ago edited 12h ago
Segregate your iot devices onto its own subnet so no parallel attacks can go to your lan devices. Block all of the telemetry bullshit on the wan to stop devices from spying on you.
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u/ateoz 10h ago
Because sometimes I'm at work wondering what my toaster is up to and now I can dm it.
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u/insane_contin 3h ago
"Hey toaster, you up?"
"I'M MAKING SO MUCH TOAST!"
"Well that's great little bud- wait, no one is home now"
"I SHALL TOAST THE WHOLE HOUSE!"
"Oh god no, I knew I shouldn't have skimped out on the smoke detector subscription!"
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u/psychoacer 12h ago
I would be fine with it if it wasn't just used for marketing. Added features and the ability to start/stop something remotely would be nice but I don't need ads or my info being sold
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u/justmikebeingmike 9h ago
Not to be That Guy but there are still devices that do t need internet. My stove, microwave, coffee pot, NES, SNES. A good amount of stuff can stay offline. Its all about what you're willing to give up.
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u/ZergTerminaL 10h ago
If it's not hooked up to the internet then how an I supposed to sell you a subscription service for it?
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u/Send_bitcoins_here 11h ago
I just bought a Phillips electric toothbrush and was slightly disgusted by the suggestion of downlong an app and connecting it via Bluetooth.
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u/LinearFluid 11h ago
If you don't connect them you can not turn wifi off so they sit they broadcasting across a 40Mhz Wide part of the WiFI spectrum.
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u/TwinSong 10h ago
Visting my grandpa who has no Wi-Fi and trying to do anything on my laptop and nope this needs internet that needs internet. The help feature needs the internet, seriously? What if I need help connecting to the internet in the first place? Yes I know you probably mean internet of things.
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u/exgiexpcv 10h ago
It's a growing pain of security and information management. At some point, the c-suite execs will realise the data isn't worth the losses and extended vulnerability.
But until then, it's gonna keep happening.
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u/Phastor 9h ago
Because we aren't the ones who decide that. It's the manufacturers who get big checks from advertisers and data brokers that decide that.
It's also for holding your device hostage later. If they realize their product lasts too long and doesn't need to be replaced for long enough, they'll wall it's features behind a subscription. "Want the ice dispenser of your freezer to keep working? Pay us monthly." They'll get you to keep paying them one way or another.
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u/andyb521740 8h ago
So someone who works with network refer/HVAC.
It allows us to monitor, troubleshoot and adjust thousands of devices from remote locations. We often can tell when is wrong with the devices before we roll a tech. Also we setup alarms to tell us when something is getting wonky so we can fix it before it goes 100% down and destroys food.
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u/visionofacheezburger 7h ago
I used to work for a large grocer for many years and every cooler and freezer had sensors and alarms used to monitor on and off site in case of emergencies. You need to have some sort of data link to do that. It's not always about marketing sometimes stores want people to be able to buy the things they need and want. Having to toss food away doesn't benefit anyone's political agendas and the cost is almost always at the expense of the consumers.
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u/marteney1 7h ago
I’ve been saying this for years. Like that dude whose parents’ coffee maker sent a gb of data? Wtf does a coffee maker need WiFi for?
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u/GrannyTurtle 7h ago
Perhaps Star Trek isn’t the best example to use - they can literally tell a computer, “tea, Earl Grey” and get a cup of tea…
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u/AtlasSolaire 6h ago
Dude. Do you know how hard it is to fine a REGULAR 4k tv that isn’t smart? (Hooking up a smart device to a smart display is fucking stupid.) it’s insane. Everything you walk by has some kind of communication capability. At this point it’s incredibly difficult to avoid.
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u/Jlove7714 6h ago
Cyber Security guy here. In a general sense, your stuff is safe behind your router if it's acting properly as a firewall. "Hackers" don't just send a magic packet to your IP and own your IoT stuff. They need an exposed service to poke at to find a way in.
Now where a lot of IoT goes wrong is connecting those devices to an insecure cloud platform somewhere, or even just not securing the connection to said could very well.
VLAN off your IoT, enforce client isolation on that network, and as long as you don't invite insecure microphones and cameras into your home you'll be just fine.
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u/The_Long_Blank_Stare 5h ago
My new workplace (office + warehouse) has networked HVAC units with settings for power conservation, and that stuff breaks so often that we spend more money than we save by paying technicians to service them. Spending thousands to save hundreds. Solid business model.
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u/EarhornJones 5h ago
We bought new kitchen appliances.
The microwave asked to connect to the Internet.
"Why would I want that?" I asked.
"The clock would always be right," my wife, knowing my clock obsession replied.
I connected it to the Internet.
Now my phone tells me when the dishwasher runs, and I can upload "recipes" to the microwave.
The only useful bit (other than the clocks) so far is that when I forget to turn off the oven (which I sometimes do), I can just turn it off from wherever I'm sitting.
Also, I'm required to navigate a series of menus to set a timer on the microwave. I ended up just buying a standalone timer.
I swear that the people who design these have never been in a human kitchen.
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u/emannikcufecin 1h ago
I really like having my dishwasher connected. I find it useful. Even moreso with the fridge and garage freezer. My kids are shit at closing doors so it's saved me tons of money in spoiled food.
I have oscillating fans that I can fine tune without getting up. The washing machine tells me when it's done and my kids and get in the house through the garage if they don't have a key.
I don't understand the microwave thing though.
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u/mvoccaus 4h ago
https://reddit.com/link/pgef27c/video/99wfsdyk75vh1/player
I shit you not, literally today, right before I left to go get something to eat, my oven told me it needed to do a firmware update, which will take 30 minutes. I thought this was so fucking ludicrous that I had to snap pictures of this on my phone. 👆🏻
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u/8888eightyeight 4h ago
I was proud of myself that when I got my DVD player I was like it works so I'm not plugging it into the Internet I instantly thought of like a planned obsolescence signal being shot to it or something
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u/RichardMuggedHimself 3h ago
Idk I’ve lived half my life without appliances connecting to the internet and it’s been just fine. I’ve never once thought you know I really need to check what the fridge is doing right now when I’m at the beach.
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u/beermaker 3h ago
I was pleasantly surprised that our new heat pump water heater has an on/off switch & a blending valve... no wifi, no app, nothing.
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u/rimshot101 3h ago
That reminds me, there's a software update for my bathmat. Can't use it til it downloads.
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u/bloke_pusher 3h ago
Things got expensive and the cheap stuff is spying on you. Complain to the lawmakers, it's an artificial disadvantage for poor people by companies abusing wealth disparity. We need laws, for instance that all this shit can be physically turned off with a switch, that goes beyond an option, that can be turned on again from outside.
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u/Crashman09 1h ago
Because nobody played attention when they were playing Megaman Battle Network.
I knew what we were in for when I was 10
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u/JadedCampaign9 23m ago
There's a reason why, in the Battlestar Galactica canon, the Jupiter class battlestars, of which Galactica was a member, had air-gapped systems. In the 2004 canon, the Cylons never had to fire a shot because they just turned off the modern spaceships they were facing with a single hack.
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u/PostMatureBaby 12h ago
Because marketing data is like gold