They gave us a character death WORSE than Vol'jin's.

Bravo blizzard entertainment

I am not saying Midnight story is bad or worse than shadowlands but the story delivery so far have to be one of the worse in ANY expansion I have ever seen.

Nothing about this expansion feel like there is anything at stake, the pacing is so off almost like the story construct backward sometimes even straight up missing something.

And the dialogue. Who controls the voice direction of this expansion? Because every single delivery spoken is like one giant massive therapy speech.

I legit don't get what happened to this expansion. This is WORSE than even the Jailer delivery.

Just look at the end of void well cinematic. The entire thing is like a an MCU scene with sylvanas arrived and we supposed to cheer or what?

Legit i can't believe I said this how the hell they made delivery worse than Shadowland

Just look at Zul'Jan death. Why are they talking so much in such emotional moment. And why he spill bunch of dialogue that us players barely have any connection to? What are we doing?

Spoiler for next patch.

Liadrin just dies in latest patch and her delivery is so off. I legit don't know who in charge of this cinematic

I know I am ranting and complaining but geniunely speaking what happened to this expansion?

SPOILERS

Jesus Christ she just says some generic Paladin shit then keels over dead what the fuck is that Blizzard?

Early on in the timeline, the Alliance was first being introduced to Shaman that are on their side. Though the Wildhammer Dwarves had Shaman among their ranks, and the Bronzebeard had an ancestral history of having Shaman (Called "seers of the old ways" by Ironforge guards), the rest of the Alliance saw Shamanism as an alien and strange tradition.

In Forever, we are introduced to playable Alliance Shaman in the earliest part of the timeline. Wildhammer Dwarves have been visiting Bronzebeard settlements to spread the teachings of Shamanism among their brethren. This however is limited to Dwarf settlements.

If you ask a Stormwind guard for directions to the Shaman trainer, this is what they say:

Shamanism? We don't do that here. Try Ironforge.

In TBC, the Alliance's first playable Shaman are the Draenei. Taught by the Broken who have been introduced to Shamanism by Farseer Nobundo, the Draenei Shaman have been spreading across Azeroth to spread their teachings. In Ironforge, a Draenei Farseer is welcomed as a guest inside the halls. This is not the case with Stormwind, however.

If you ask a Stormwind guard about a Shaman trainer in TBC, this is what they say:

I don't know what possessed you to seek out a Shaman, but there's someone calling herself a Farseer by the lake outside the gates.

When you meet the Farseer, she mentions how she came to Stormwind to teach them about Shamanism, but that no one so far has listened to her.

Taking all this into account, we have some idea of how Shaman in the Alliance are perceived. The Dwarves, with their ancient tradiiton of Shamanism, seem to adapt well to their teachings. The Humans however see Shamanism as strange, bizarre, even suspicious. Stormwind has no Shaman trainers, and the only one nearby is seemingly not even let inside the city limits.

This of course makes sense. As far as the Humans know, Shamanism is the tradition of the Orcs, and the Horde. The only Shaman they have seen, besides the occasional Wildhammer Gryphon rider, have been enemies on the battlefield. Their mistrust and coldness towards their new Shaman allies shows their ingrained distaste for Horde Shaman.

By the time of Retail, so many new Shaman races have been made available to the Alliance that is has become common and normal for them. Every city has a Shaman trainer, and the mistrust seems to have evaporated. But during the early times, this was not the case.

One additional food for thought are the Skyborne. Being the only cross-faction race in Forever, a question about how the Skyborne are differentiated in the Alliance comes into mind. The easiest differentiation is that Skyborne Mages are allies, while Skyborne Shaman are enemies. In fact, the Windshapers joined the Horde precisely because they were more open, accepting, and knowledgeable about Shamanism than the Alliance. This creates even more reason for the Alliance to not look so favorably on the Shaman.

So, a Dwarf Shaman in Forever and a Draenei one in TBC have to fight an uphill battle to be trusted, accepted, and liked among the Alliance. While Dwarf Shaman are welcomed among their kin, when they venture further out, they have to prove themselves to be accepted. They find no trainers or mentors outside of their homes, and have to carry their experiences about their journeys back into their homeland and catch up on their training there.

Let's talk about bits and bobs of lore that still makes you go 'huh?'

Can be everything from bits that were left hanging and you wonder where they were going with it, or (in more extreme cases) things that make you wonder why they ever thought that a good idea?

Not necessarily stuff like The Jailer, but more the small things that are... a little weird.

Things like 'Why did they decide that having the green flight exists because Ysera was deadly sick as a proto-dragon' (seriously, it feels unnecessary cruel)

(EDIT: The title is meant to read 'lore' not blore, of course. It originally was 'bits and bobs of lore' and I missed the 'b' when shortening it down. Whoops)

Just want to get something off my chest here, because i don't know if there's misinformation, media illitteracy, or people being genuinely jaded here.

So, after the raid, Liadrin dies.

That is a bother, to be honest. It's an interesting character that had a huge development this patch and see it gone feels like a lot of wasted potential.

On the other hand it does not go without a blast.

Her role as a bridge between amani and elves is this way extended, thanks to her effort, to their leaders respectively - you might like, you might not like, but that's perfectly on character for her and for her is a reasonable resolution for her martyrdom.

Her cinematic does not exactly give justice to what happens in game - yeah, she wimpers down and dies... after literally infusing your whole raid of holy energy and empowering towards the last phase, after pleading the light at the start of combat ( not unlike Tirion). That's the most bad ass thing a paladin can strive for as she literally gives out Avenging Wrath to the whole raid - the cinematic makes perfect sense as that is the aftermath, people have time to cheer and she did not receive directly personal injury. It's timed to give time for her to see her efforts gave the results she intended and then collapses - the timing and framing is not weird, it's very clear and functional.

Also she has a HUGE death flag in a discussion between her and Zul'Jarra right before entering the raid. That's another deal but it unveils how she is ready for anything.

Don't get me wrong, there is something weird. She whimpers too much "cleanly" so to speak, without scars or power disintegrating her corpse or what else. On the other hand makes her heroic act really heroic, as it's not a "yellow mother of god" of sorts.

I don't think it's a cheaply expended death. it's against what is the most ancient enemy of the Amani, a terror for what may be to come, and her narrative does not closely belong to the more underground theme. The aftermath of the event happens mostly around Silvermoon and the final eulogy captures this perfectly ( even if the emotes during the discussion make it kinda wonky - like i get it they are standard animations but cmon ).

Still, i would have preferred that she lived.

( Aethas poor boy can't get a fucking break tho )

If all the four faction fights in Warcraft 3, an all out war (Alliance, Horde, Sentinels and Scourge) who would most likely win? And how strong do you think that faction truly is based on their feats? Factions at their peak.

Which faction would come out on top and which ones would be the one with heavy losses? (just a fun question! we all know the winner here, just thinking that y'all might have another opinion on who wins :D)

Never mind the fact that he managed to reanimate Invincible his pet horse, in Season of Discovery Sage Truthbearer/Sir Gregory Edmunson, or in TFT where he managed to use some of his remaining power to reanimate Sapphiron; the fact that he didn't raise Uther raises a few questions.

Was Uther simply too in tune with the Light. Did Arthas need to be the new Lich King to even hope to draw the most powerful of Azeroth's champions to Icecrown Citadel? Was Uther too high of a level for Arthas to reanimate? Could Arthas only have managed to do so much at such a low level during the events of RoC?

I ask based on this recent short I stumbled upon. ~ https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LoLs-cEefNY

Constructive criticism and personal theories posted by the reader are beneficial for the next reader.

I've been thinking about the underlying mechanics of warlock magic and have a theory I'd like some feedback on.

My thought is that warlocks fundamentally manipulate the essence of souls, particularly by containing, releasing, or exciting the energies that make up a being.

Demonology: Demons are inherently chaotic beings tied to Disorder. When a warlock binds a demon, they're essentially sealing away the chaotic aspects of its soul, making it more controllable without fundamentally changing its nature. More powerful demons are harder to contain, explaining why something like an Infernal might only remain bound temporarily. With Voidwalkers, the same principle applies, except the warlock is containing their insatiable hunger rather than Disorder.

Affliction: Rather than introducing something foreign, spells like Corruption might work by unleashing the chaos already inherent in living things. The warlock disrupts the natural stability of a creature's essence, allowing disorder and deterioration to take hold.

Destruction: This could be another application of manipulating essence and energy, exciting particles or accelerating energetic reactions to produce heat, fire, and destructive force.

Soul Shards: I also distinguish between a soul and what we call a soul shard. My thought is that ordinary soul shards contain portions of harvested life essence or spiritual energy, not necessarily an imprisoned, conscious soul. Actually trapping someone's soul would be a separate application of binding magic.

In this interpretation, warlocks aren't necessarily creating chaos or fundamentally changing souls. They're manipulating the energies and properties already present: binding some aspects, releasing others, and converting spiritual essence into usable magical power.

I'm not suggesting this is canon, but I think it provides a fairly consistent explanation of all three warlock specializations.

Does anything in established Warcraft lore directly contradict this idea? I'd be interested in examples that support it or challenge it.

While the Fourth War in Battle for Azeroth was triggered by a number of factors, Azerite was the development that truly escalated hostilities as both factions rushed to secure it. Considering how potent and dangerous Azerite is, I definitely feel like Varian and Vol’jin would want to secure it immediately. But something tells me they’d handle it quite differently compared to Anduin and Sylvanas in canon.

What do we think the long term impacts are going to be of the Sky Elves joining the Alliance and Horde? What do we expect the various races to think of the Sky Elves and vice versa, and especially what do you think the Thalassian Elves would think of the Skyborne whenever they finally come into the picture?

I am especially curious how the Skyborne adjust to the Horde more than the Alliance, as the Horde is kind of a coalition of outcasts forced together to survive and look out for one another, but I am not sure Skyborne fit that bill, and when confronted with the more violent or dark means of the various Horde Factions, I dunno if that could create some friction down the line?

Metzen said on stage in the blizzcon 2024 announcement of the worldsoul saga, about Midnight..... "You will be going to the old world, to the fabled lands of Quel'thalas. There, the forces of the Void have invaded Azeroth intent on snuffing out the Light of the Sunwell and plunging the world into darkness and fear. You will not only help reunify the scattered Elven tribes of Azeroth, but you will make your stand with the forces of the Light and banish the shadow forever. Of course, blizzcon, it is Azeroth; things may not go to plan. Things may just spiral wildly out of control, leading us to......." where upon he skips ahead to the third expansion. But for this topic I want to stop right there. Of the things that Metzen said would happen only in Midnight.....the last two things have not happened yet. Namely, we have never made our stand with the forces of Light to banish the shadow forever. So the patch 12.2 teased in the eclipse cinematic must involve somewhere in the raid us meeting forces of the Light who we get to stand with and banish the shadow forever? And then lastly, he lists "after" banishing the shadow forever...that things may not go as we planned and spiral out of control. So I am asking what twist, what unexpected event, what strange or unpredictable or shocking thing can occur which still includes us standing with forces of Light to banish the shadow forever 'and' also not going to plan and being shocking?

I'll go first, if that helps. I've already noticed and said that the image of the fireball thing does not match the image of the translucent golden yellow stellar constellation with yellow magic glow and extra yellow runed rings in the logo for the expansion after Midnight. And when the Xal'atath eclipse cinematic played.....it now seems strange to me that both the hologram doorbell "and" Xal'atath were seemingly written as if they were avoiding ever saying the name Azeroth. The doorbell hologram says "will never abandon what lies within" ....which does not mention Azeroth, and Xal'atath says "There you are....." which does not mention Azeroth. To be clear, I'm not saying that either the doorbell hologram nor Xal'atath knows the twist.....but rather that maybe the writers are trying to be cheeky and obscure with the words they chose? What if..........the fiery red thing we see inside that chamber is actually An'she and An'she was a child of Azeroth and Azeroth herself as a Worldsoul was maybe secretly switched out for An'she long ago (for now I'll say maybe they hid Azeroth as a Worldsoul inside the moon of the Azeroth planet or something) and so the automated doorbell hologram doesn't know that it was switched out it just does what it was programmed and guards the door. And Xal'atath doesn't know that what she refers to as "there you are" is An'she not Azeroth.....so maybe she spends the raid breaking open the rings around the fiery red being in the ring that we see. So perhaps she only realizes her error when the ring gets shut down and An'she reveals himself to us and grants us some Light powers to zap Xal'atath and permanently end her existence and banish all Void from ever threatening the planet ever again? That would fit the criteria of Metzen saying we would join with forces of the Light to banish the shadow forever. Then maybe Azeroth the Worldsoul comes back out of hiding and drops down into the Worldcore chamber to congratulate us on our seeming victory......but when she gets there, slam, the rings turn back on and trap her in Yellow magic and we discover either Iridikron or Odyn has trapped her there because both of them have been associated with yellow magic and neither one of them works with Titans anymore? Iridikron hates mortals and wants to eat them all; and Odyn doesn't believe that mortals deserve to become the pre-eminent lifeforms on the planet to replace all titanforged constructs. Either way, one of them has a base under Storm Peaks and the other supposedly returned to a base on the surface of Storm Peaks in BFA; meaning whatever the thundering judgement that zapped blue laser beams toward Storm Peaks was aiming at......it was one or the other; since they are threatening the Azeroth Worldsoul. Either one of those options would count as things not going to plan and spiraling out of control.

The jailer is widely considered to be the worst villain this franchise has ever had but how is xalatath any better? It's an elf that they randomly came up with, with a "hahaha I'm eeeeevil" personality a 12 year old would write that looks generic, sounds generic with a plan that nobody knows what its about. I feel nothing towards her and what she's doing.

For me, she's on par with the jailer. It's literally the same thing. The jailer at least looked unique.

I think Liadrin is going to pull a Gandalf where it looks as though she dies fighting Kithix and they fall together into the abyss. Everyone mourns, Arator is at the forefront of the mourning even though Salandria is literally her daughter. But then! Something is up with the Dawnwell. We all rush to investigate, and Liadrin rises up through it. She fell down through into the World Core, and confirms Orweyna’s vision that things are bad and we need to get down there, leading us to Patch 12.2.

update: My idea here was FUCKING BETTER AND IT TOOK ME FIVE MINUTES AND NO MONEY TO COME UP WITH. HOW DO PEOPLE WHO GET PAID TO DO THIS FOR A CAREER HAVE ANY EXCUSE FOR WHAT WE JUST WITNESSED

So I was going through the story today, and was musing about the name “Garek Bandarion”, and where I had heard it before.
Besides Garek being similar to Garen from League of Legends, it also hit me: “Beric Dondarrion”.

It’s almost an anagram of the same name. Both serve as warriors after death and both serve an undead Queen. - well, I’m unsure if Beric survives resurrecting Lady Stoneheart. I recall that he did not come back after that. Even so.
They’re too similar both in name and story that it can‘t be a coincidence.

What do y’all think?

Do all monk teachings come from Pandaria originally? Is it correct to assume that before Mists of Pandaria there were no monks outside of the pandaren on Pandaria? The pandaren taught other races upon the discovery of Pandaria and from there the teachings spread all across Azeroth to all the races?

I never played wow and all my knowledge comes from wc1-2-3 so I actually dont know if the lore divide with never opening the dark portal is just "hey see we are diverging the timeline a little" move or "the time traveller moves a chair" kind of big lore change?

We all know how Gul'dan was one of the most evil characters in all Warcraft lore. Just for the sake of power he doomed Draenor, and turned the orcs into demon pawns.

And his betrayal costed the Horde the victory during the Second War. But ironically, Gul'dan's betrayal saved Azeroth's fate.

And I'm also referring to how Main Universe Gul'dan betrayed even the Legion (leading to his death in the Tomb of Sargeras). Imagine if he stayed loyal: we would have got the same invasion we got during Legion, but in the mid of the Second War. The divided and weakened Alliance and Horde wouldn't have stood a chance facing something like that.

And what do you think would have happened if Gul'dan stayed loyal? We could also discuss the "what if Gul'dan stayed loyal to Doomhammer and the Horde won the Second War".

Had a YouTube video recommend to read:

War of the ancients trilogy
Day of the dragon
Lord of the clans
The last guardian

Are these valid and is there anything else to read that covers the lore leading up to WoW Forever? I do plan on playing the warcraft games as well.

This is supposed to be 3 years after WC3, yet they act like we've been friends with the Night Elves and Tauren for 2 decades.

They carried over the world from SoD, which includes quests from TBC?

How does that make sense?

Her husband, Lor'themar was out there defending his home and people against an invasion by a cosmic threat threatening the whole world, he almost died several times and where was Thalyssra?

I realize she isn't a combat oriented mage, but she HAS been in combat before, she was literally in Silvermoon at the start of midnight and yet we don't see her fighting alongside Lor'themar

Many blizzard interviews confirms that WoW Forever is a time bubble set in the year or years of vanilla time and it will stay there as the time doesn't progress but the world does so what that mean is the new content are from unexplored known or maybe some unknown location, so maybe things like Kul'Tiras and Zandalar could be future content in the Vanilla timeline or even Northrend or Outland from different portal but things like Panderia or the dragon isles will stay unexplored as we discoverd them only in that expansion time.

But the story of retail will be part of forever as we won't kill Zul'jin if we explored Zul'aman because he die in TBC and the same for Fandral or any other character that die later.

This could give them some limitations in the writing but it also allows them to discover other parts of Azeroth and focus on the smaller grounded stories.

In the other hand the idea of alternative timeline is intriguing, many expansion sacrifices the lore for gameplay and bombastic expansions that hype the players like the best example here is TBC where they turn almost every known named character to a raid boss and throw away many cool enemies factions like the Amani trolls or the felt orcs who could easily have their own cool story lines, so alternative universe could rebuild everything from the start and make very bad lore concepts like WoD or SL who both created bad mark on the lore especially SL.

But I also understand that creating two parallel stories of the same world can create it own problems as people will split and some think retail lore is the canon and others will think the forever one is the canon and it could create more problems over solution to the lore.

So in your opinion, should forever stick to the time bubble concept or it should take the risk and create alternative universe as these already exist in the lore anyway?

Mueh'zala elevated Bwonsamdi into his station as a Loa, but this begs the question: was Mueh'zala himself also originally a mortal troll who ascended?

Likewise, for Zanza the Restless.

They're the only 3 that are visually humanoid trolls, unlike the others.

And yeah, we could assume that Loa could potentially choose any form, so they appear as mortal-like visually, but I strongly suspect that Bwonsamdi still remaining clearly troll-like post-apotheosis is a hint at Loa origins, or at least their preferred forms.

The majority of the Loa are Wild Gods and appear as animalistic which makes sense for that group. Hakkar as well (From my research, he IS classified as a Wild God, despite his proclivity for blood and sacrifice, lol?).

And then you get kinda humanoid-looking Loa like Kevo ya Siti and Lukou, though they don't appear as trolls.